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ahmedbahgat wrote:
It is interesting subject to be honest, I actually found Jesus story is one of the most facsinating prophet stories, let me bring the Arabic text so I can give an opinion: وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلاَّ اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا (157) بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا (158) [The Quran ; 4:157-158] -> Firstly the verses are talking about Qatl (murder), not Wafah or Maut (Death), so there is no link in here to his death, 4:157 simply denying that the Jews killed Jesus |
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-> I believe your concern is more about 4:158, well yes it only says that Jesus was raised however that was not the only verse talking about that, as I showed earlier, we have the following verse that adds another piece of information to 4:158:
إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (55) [The Quran ; 3:55] -> See, in 4:157 Allah only said "Rafaahu" (Raised him) |
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-> But in 3:158 Allah said "Mutawafika Wa Rafiaak", i.e. "Put you to death then raise you"
therefore the two verses 4:157 and 3:158 must be taken together, we just can't ignore the fact that Allah said Mutawafika before Rafiaak even logically, if Mutawafika mean to take him back then we really donlt need Rafiaak, because Rafiaak also means indirectly that Allah took him back to the heaven |
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Do you get my logic mate? |
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i wrote:
## v can be pretty sure that this was the end of christ's interaction with these peepz! had they seen christ roaming around, they would have realised they failed in their designs to kill the messiah! this is further clarified by the verse 5:17! v now need to answer pertaining to christ's affairs post this incident - what happened to christ? where did he go? |
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i wrote:
i will now return to 4:157, which,along with 4:158, builds a very strong case "jesus is dead according to quran": |
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# yups, bro...take care! (-: |
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i will summarise what i have attempted to show thus far: |
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a. ) the rafa'a of christ was a physical one, and it was his body that was lifted up! |
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b. ) that even when the nafs is seperated from the body, it does not constitute death! |
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c. ) there is no verse in the quran which says that the nafs of christ was seperated from his body! |
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d. ) yatawaffa need not translate as death or taking the soul back, only return/take back! |
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e. ) there is not a single verse which talks about the mawt/death of christ! |
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# i wonder how much i have been able to put across legibly,but i would like to read what u have to say! so far i have only tried to show that there is no verse in the quran which tells us, positively, about the death of christ! |
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but 4:157-158 clearly tell us that after the "incident", christ was lifted up from amongst this prople! (-: |
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# trying, bro! : grin : ## salam, bro! (-: |
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
Ok, I read your comment, I can see where you are mixing things up, let me start by saying that your understanding is wrong due to the fact that you are mixing two different words, Wafa & Tawafa, I even doubt that both have the same root, however I don’t use the common fallacy of roots the non Arabic speakers always resort to trying to understand the Quran, to understand the Quran words meaning we need to use the Quran to achieve that. Wafa is a verb, an action done by a human to the self, it means to fulfil Tawafa is also a verb but the action done by another entity on humans and it means cause to fulfil, I.e. when Allah, or the Angels or the Angel of DEATH perform (Tawafa) on us it means they caused us to fulfil our appointed term of living, i.e. we will be caused to die |
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You problem that you want to see the word Mawt (DEATH) for you to believe that Tawafa means to cause to die, well I have a surprise for you, I posted what you want in my first comment but it seems you overlooked it, let’s have another look: |
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Say: ‘The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord.
[The Quran ; 32:11] قُلْ يَتَوَفَّاكُم مَّلَكُ الْمَوْتِ الَّذِي وُكِّلَ بِكُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَى رَبِّكُمْ تُرْجَعُونَ (11) -> Clear as light, ” يَتَوَفَّاكُم مَّلَكُ الْمَوْتِ”, “Yatawafakum Malik Al Mawt”, i.e., ” The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls”, now let me ask you when the Angel of DEATH (Malik Al Mawt), Yatawafina, does it mean to you that the angel of death is not going to cause us to die?, of course that is what the Angel is going to do for us, this is his job, Malik Al Mawt, i.e. the Angel of Mawt is in charge to cause us to DIE. i.e. our term in this life is fulfilled |
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Let me reply to you summary |
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well, the body is not going to do any physical action if the soul existed the body, either we will be sleep or dead if our soul existed the body
# doesnt matter, bro...when u are sleeping, u are "alive"....dont let me v are dead and breathing in r sleep! (-:
# but it doesnt tell us sleep is death.....it told us that god takes the souls at sleep and returns the souls for which death has not been decreed! ....death has not been decreed..... ur soul is taken away despite no decree of death......ur soul is taken away in sleep despite no death... when v are not dead....v are alive...so do v agree v are only sleeping....not dead....v are alive? (-:
# where does it say that the soul will be taken, bro? if u say "tawaffa" means taking away the soul, then in 39:42 it should mean that god takes away the souls of the souls (yatawaffa ananfus)...is it so, bro? does god take away the souls of the souls? (-:
# i agree...in context of the word mawt it would mean for the purpose of death....but in its absence there is no reason to understand death! again, v know "b-a(yn)-th" is used for resurrection in the quran....but it is in the context of qiyamah...right? everytime v come across "b-a-th" v dont understand it as resurrection! did the bani israel, in 2:246, ask their prophet to resurrect a dead person to be their king, that they may fight in the sabeel of god? (-:
# the verse doesnt specify any time frame, bro...if it does then i am most willing to be ur audience! (-:
# yes...the verses are identical; but does that mean they have died after living the same number of years? then why should v think it means that they are both already dead? (-: and 3:55 cleary added an extra piece of infomartion in 3:55, which is Isa was caused to Tawafa before his body was raised |
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
Let me reply to you summary That was after Allah Tawafa Isa, i.e. Allah caused Isa to fulfil his appointed term in this life, i.e. caused him to die |
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well, the body is not going to do any physical action if the soul existed the body, either we will be sleep or dead if our soul existed the body |
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Allah clearly told us indorectly the death is similar to sleep |
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Of course there is, the one I posted about causing him to die or sleep then rasing his dead or sleep body |
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Actually i was mistaken, Tawafa is only mean to cause to fulfil, and in the context of Malik Al Mawt, it means to cause to fulfill our life term in this life, i.e. we will be sleep or dead after the soul has exited the body |
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There is actually, 19:33 same as 19:15 which is talking about the death of Yahya |
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well there is, 19:33 is clearly telling us the Isa is going to die one day, Yawm Amoot, exactly as it was said about Yahya in 19:15 |
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
what you didn't reply to 32:11? let me put it you tis way: what is the job of Malik Al Mawt? was that job described by a verb in the Quran? |
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
Actually i was mistaken, Tawafa is only mean to cause to fulfil, and in the context of Malik Al Mawt, it means to cause to fulfill our life term in this life, i.e. we will be sleep or dead after the soul has exited the body |
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
what you didn't reply to 32:11? let me put it you tis way: what is the job of Malik Al Mawt? was that job described by a verb in the Quran? |
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# u urself answered this question, bro: |
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
Actually i was mistaken, Tawafa is only mean to cause to fulfil, and in the context of Malik Al Mawt, it means to cause to fulfill our life term in this life, i.e. we will be sleep or dead after the soul has exited the body |
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# the context is clear there...."mawt"...so there v can understand that yatawaffa implies an impending death! |
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
Thanks bro but please don't use the FM technique |
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Caused to fulfill HIS TERM OF LIFE i.e. Death don't under stand what you say bro |
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
Actually i was mistaken, Tawafa is only mean to cause to fulfil, and in the context of Malik Al Mawt, it means to cause to fulfill our life term in this life, i.e. we will be sleep or dead after the soul has exited the body |
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so 32:11 is highliting the job of Malik Al Mawt, the Angel of Mawt Yatawfa us, i.e. cause us to fulfill our term of life, i.e. cause us to die and that is what Tawafa means |
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for the Nafs on the JD it is exactly the same Towafi Kul Nafs, i.e. Kul Nafs will be caused to fulfil the punishment or the rwards of their deeds |
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
Thanks bro but please don't use the FM technique |
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# fm technique? i am disappointed in u, bro! : disappointed :
lolz! |
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Caused to fulfill HIS TERM OF LIFE i.e. Death
don't under stand what you say bro |
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
Actually i was mistaken, Tawafa is only mean to cause to fulfil, and in the context of Malik Al Mawt, it means to cause to fulfill our life term in this life, i.e. we will be sleep or dead after the soul has exited the body |
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# u said tawaffa only means to cause or full....and in context of malakulmawt it means fulfill r life term...ur words?
right? |
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......u said "tawaffa" only means to cause or fulfill!
are v together so far? (-: |
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so 32:11 is highliting the job of Malik Al Mawt, the Angel of Mawt Yatawfa us, i.e. cause us to fulfill our term of life, i.e. cause us to die and that is what Tawafa means |
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# when u throw in tawaffa along with mawt(39:42) or malakulmawt(32:11) then v can understand death looms.....right? |
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for the Nafs on the JD it is exactly the same Towafi Kul Nafs, i.e. Kul Nafs will be caused to fulfil the punishment or the rwards of their deeds |
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# why not translate tuwaffa as "taking the soul back" or "death" or "life term fulfilled" there? |
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3:161 ....thumma tuwaffa kullu nafsin ma kasabat.... |
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....then every soul shall have its soul taken back what it earned.... |
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....then every soul shall be caused to die what it earned.... |
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...then every soul shall have its life term fulfilled what it earned..... |
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# let us get thru with what "tawaffa" is, bro....in context of 32:11 and 39:42....then v ll see other verses...if u dunn mind! (-:
# take care...salam bro! (-: |
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# i dont get this bro...u have a clear verse in 39:42 which says that souls are first yatawaffa, and then death is decreed......i dont see why u want to read it as "caused to die"! |
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ahmedbahgat wrote: Just kiddin bro |
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In that verse yes however there are three entities the Quran told us that they will cause us to fulfill out term of life:
1) Allah |
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2) The Angel of death |
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3) Other Angels (I bevlieve those other Sngels work only for the Angel of death) |
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well if mentioned without what is to be fulfilled then it has to be the common meaning which is fulfilling the term of life, i.e. caused to die |
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Not only with Malik Al Mawt but:
1) Allah 2) Other Angels who work for the Angel of death and that is only if what is caused to be fulfilled is ommitted for example: Towafi Kul Nafis Ma Amalat, means all souls will be caused to fulfil the punishment or rewards for their deed, this is because Ma Amalat is mentioned, however if we say any of the following: 1) Alla Yatawafa kul Nafs 2) The angel of death Yatawafa humans 3) The Angels Yatawafoon humans then it has to only means caused to fulfill the term of life, i.e. CAUSE THEM TO DIE |
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all three means DEATH indeed, as long as the soul is out of the body, if it was out for a few hours and the soul put back later in the body then it means sleep |
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see how you confirmed my argument
in every verse of the above, what is to be fullfiled is mentioned THE DEEDS if not mentioned, like Allah Yatawafa kul Nafs then it only means DEATH |
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That what the whole discussion is about bro, I told you earlier I realy care less if Jesus died or not, I only care about the meaning of the word Tawafa |
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
just a quick note before I gor to bed you said: Quote: ‹ Select › # i dont get this bro...u have a clear verse in 39:42 which says that souls are first yatawaffa, and then death is decreed......i dont see why u want to read it as "caused to die"! Bro but 39:42 saus clearly that Allah Yatawafa Al Anfus HEENA Mawtiha the word Heena bro means AT THAT TIME not after it or before it i.e. Allah Yatawafa Al Anfus AT THE TIME OF ITS DEATH, i.e. the Anfus are caused to die |
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Good night bro |
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ahmedbahgat wrote: Ok mate I deleted it for you |
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how about we agree to disagree regarding Tawafa and discuss other issues? |
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Good night |
Aksel Ankersen wrote: |
Hello all
Welcome comments from anyone but especially Apple Pie (we have not talked before, but I've seen him writing this or something like it on several forums and I would like to run this past him). |