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2. What's your take on the inheritance laws in the Quran? Do not they seem unfair to you? |
Mutley wrote: |
This is a respectable, high brow, honorable challenge to the respected Islamic scholar, Ahmed Bahgat who also happens to be in the process of rewriting the Quran, and developing an English translation of it that meets his needs |
Mutley wrote: |
We shall debate about the inheritance rules. We will stick strictly to the Quran, as said respected scholar, mentioned above, always demands. |
Mutley wrote: |
The challenge is to add up the scenario of the following, and nothing more than the following, of two daughters, two parents and one wife. |
Mutley wrote: |
That's it. Other than the general public, there are no other inheritors. To do this, one must use Quran 4:11, 4:12, and 4:176, |
Mutley wrote: |
as I believe this is a fair offer and the only Quran verses that deal with this issue. |
Mutley wrote: |
Ahmed Bahgat is allowed to refute everything I say for as many times as he wants and as long as he wants (and of course, I'm allowed to answer back) |
Mutley wrote: |
Fair challenge? |
Mutley wrote: |
How could it not be any more fair? |
JulianCharteris wrote: |
19/24 still doesn't add up to 1, Ahmed. It's still an error. Your dunk has been unslammed. |
JulianCharteris wrote: |
That's right - 24/24 = 1. Give the Muslim a clap for understanding basic arithmetic.
Your answers still don't add up to 1, buddy. |
AhmedBahgat wrote: | ||
Hello All As we have seen above that in two possible scenarios (two daughters, two parents, one wife) & (one daughter, two parents, one wife), we ended up with 5/24 & 1/24 of the estate left, where that money goes?, well, the answer lies in the same sura, verse no 8, letÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s have a look: And when there are present at the division the relatives and the orphans and the needy, give them (something) out of it and speak to them kind words. [The Quran ; 4:8] وَإِذَا حَضَرَ الْقِسْمَةَ أُوْلُواْ الْقُرْبَى وَالْيَتَامَى وَالْمَسَاكِينُ فَارْزُقُوهُم مِّنْهُ وَقُولُواْ لَهُمْ قَوْلاً مَّعْرُوفًا ( -> See, And when there are present at the division the relatives and the orphans and the needy, give them (something) out of it , ie.. in these 2 scenarios we have 5/24 or 1/24 of the estate to be given to the relatives and the orphans and the needy if any of them is present during the division of the deceased estate, and on top of that: and speak to them kind words. , i.e. in addition to giving the relatives and the orphans and the needy that money, we should also speak to them kind words. LetÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s now look at the estate distribution again in each scenario: A) Two daughters, two parents, one wife: Should leave us with 5/24 of the estate, therefore it goes to the relatives and the orphans and the needy i.e. the estate total = 19/24 (first relatives) + 5/24 (the relatives and the orphans and the needy) = 24/24 = 1 B) One daughters, two parents, one wife: Should leave us with 1/24 of the estate, therefore it goes to the relatives and the orphans and the needy i.e. the estate total = 23/24 (first relatives) + 1/24 (the relatives and the orphans and the needy) = 24/24 = 1 And that should be the final slam dunk: |
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Unpopular Arab Thoughts That All Arabs Have Thought
THE LATEST NEWS IN RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION ALL OVER THE WORLD, BUT ESPECIALLY THE MIDDLE EAST AND EGYPT Who Taught Allah Math? March 14, 2007 By Ali Sina One of the most obvious mathematical mistakes of the Quran can be found in the division of the inheritance. The laws of inheritance are spread out in several Suras. One can find references to them in Al-Baqarah(2), Al-Maidah(5) and Al-Anfal(. But the details of these laws are spelled out in the Surah Nisa (4). Q. 4:11 Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Allah (thus) directs you as regards your ChildrenÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases (Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s) after the payment of legacies and debtsÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¦Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? Q. 4: 12 Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debtsÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¦Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? Q. 4:176 Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance: If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance: If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them): if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? Despite the fact that it says Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Allah made them clearÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â, these laws are far from clear. Verse 4:11 says that if a man has only one daughter, she gets half of the inheritance irrespective of other heirs. But since the same verse says that the portion of the male is twice that of the female, her brother is supposed to get all the inheritance. IsnÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t this a discrepancy? Certainly there is an error in how this law is written. Yet the problem is aggravated further when the share of other heirs like parents and wives are taken into consideration. There are cases when the total of the shares assigned to the heirs exceeds the patrimony. Take for example the following. According to the above verses, if a man dies leaving behind a wife, three daughters and his two parents, His wifeÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s share of his inheritance is 1/8. (In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth) His daughters would receive 2/3 (if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance;) and his parents each will get 1/6 of his inheritance. (For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children;) When you add all these fractions the sum is more than the total of inheritance. Wife1/8 = 3/24 Daughters 2/3 = 16/24 Father 1/6 = 4/24 Mother1/6 = 4/24 Total = 27/24 Now take another example. Say a man is survived by his wife, his mother and his sisters. The wife receives 1/4 of the inheritance, (In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child;) the mother 1/3 (if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the heirs, the mother has a third;) and the sisters 2/3. (If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) When we add up these fractions they too are more than the total. Wife1/4 = 3/12 Mother 1/3 = 4/12 Sisters 2/3 = 8/12 Total = 15/12 In the above examples, the shares apportioned to the heirs exceed the total of the inheritance. In both cases the total of the inheritance sums to exactly one BEFORE taking into account the wifeÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s share. What should be done if a man has two wives, one with children and the other without children? Does the one with children receive 1/8 and the one without children 1/4? And is this justice? Now suppose a woman dies leaving a husband and a brother: Husband receives half (In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child.) Brother receives everything (If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance.) Does this mean that the parents, sisters and husband do not get anything? In that case where is the justice and if they do how can the brother get everything? Husband, (1/2) = 1/2 Brother (everything) = 2/2 Total = 3/2 This verse does not specify that the brother gets everything only when there are no other heirs. It just says when there are no children he gets everything. In the same verse it says that if a man dies leaving a sister, she gets half. What will happen to the other half? Here is another example: A woman leaves behind a husband, a sister and a mother. Husband, (1/2) = 3/6 Sister (1/2) = 3/6 Mother (1/3) = 2/6 Total = 8/6 We can conclude that the Quran in matters of inheritance is very obtuse. It is so obtuse that Shiites and Sunnis practice this law differently. For example: If a man leaves a wife and the two parents, the Shiits will give the wife 1/4 and then distribute the remainder as 1/3 for the mother and 2/3 for the father, i.e. they will receive 1/4 and 1/2 of the original estate (see #2741). Sunnis give the wife 1/4, the mother 1/3 and the father as the nearest male relative the rest, i.e. 5/12. As one can witness, the Quran is anything but clear. In order to solve these problems the Islamic doctors of law have devised a complex Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??scienceÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? called Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Al-FaraÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??idÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â. It contains rules of Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??AwlÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? and Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Usbah,Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? and the laws of Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??UsoolÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? of the FaraÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??id, the laws of Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Hajb wa Hirman,Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? and many other issues relating to this matter. The laws of Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??AwlÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? (accommodation) deals with cases when the inheritorÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s shares exceed or Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??overshootÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? the sum of the total inheritance. In such case the shares are adjusted to accommodate everyone. This is how it works: Wife1/8 = 3/24 is changed to 3/27 Daughters 2/3 = 16/24 is changed to 16/27 Father 1/6 = 4/24 is changed to 4/27 Mother1/6 = 4/24 is changed to 4/27 Total = 27/24 27/27 and for the second case, Wife1/4 = 3/12 is changed to 3/15 Mother 1/3 = 4/12 is changed to 4/15 Sisters 2/3 = 8/12 is changed to 8/15 Total = 15/12 15/15 Thus the problem is solved thanks to human ingenuity but the portions are not the same as indicated in the Quran. Each party has to waive part of his or her share in order to make this law work. This is a clear case in which the words of Allah needed human intervention in order to become applicable. There are yet cases when the shares of the inheritors do not sum to a whole 100% and there is a surplus left. Take for example a man who dies and leaves his wife and his parents. Parents 1/3 = 4/12 Wife 1/4 = 3/12 Total = 7/12 Who will receive the balance 5/12 of the inheritance? The following are other cases that after the distribution, there is a surplus of Inheritance:: scenario fund distributed surplus Only a wife: = 1/4 3/4 Only a mother: = 1/3 2/3 Only a daughter = 1/2 1/2 Two daughters = 2/3 1/3 Only a Sister = 1/2 1/2 A mother and a sister = 1/3 + 1/2 = 5/6 1/6 A wife and a mother = 1/4 + 1/3 = 5/12 7/12 A sister and a wife = 1/2 + 1/4 = 3/4 1/4 In all these cases and many other combinations there is a surplus. What will happen to this surplus? Who will inherit it? To deal with this problem the law of Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??UsbahÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? comes to effect. This law is to regulate the unclaimed shares, which have no corresponding people to receive them. Of course if the Quran was clear with no errors, there would have been no need for all these Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??sciencesÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? and amendments. The law of Usbah is based on the following Hadith. Sahih Bukhari 8. 80. 724 Narrated Ibn Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Abbas: The Prophet said, Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Give the FaraÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??id (the shares of the inheritance that are prescribed in the QurÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??an) to those who are entitled to receive it. Then whatever remains, should be given to the closest male relative of the deceased.Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? According to this law, a man who dies and is survived by only his daughter with no other close male relative except a second cousin, his daughter will receive half of his inheritance and the other half will go to the manÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s second cousin. This seems quite unfair to the daughter, but it would be especially unfair if the man had a needy aunt or a female first cousin that would receive nothing because they are of the wrong gender. Now suppose that a man has no other heir except his wife and a distant male relative. The wife will receive 1/4 and the distant male relative gets the balance, i.e. three times the inheritance that his widowed wife gets. Is this justice? What if the deceased has no male relative at all? What will happen to the rest of his inheritance? What happens in the reverse case when a wife has no relatives? The husband will receive half of her inheritance; who will get the other half? Note that in the Quran there is no priority for the distribution of the inheritance. In nowhere it says Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??first give to these and from what is left, give to thoseÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â. Even if we had to reinterpret these laws and prioritize them in the order that they are mentioned, it still does not work because in that case, each subsequent inheritor will have his or her share shrunk. Also in most cases the total inheritance will never be used up. This is the fallacy in which Mr. Sami Zaatari engages. In an attempt to refute this article Mr. Zaatari wrote: Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??If A [ the deceased] left a widow or widower, the widowÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s or widowerÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s share would first be calculated as in the first half of verse 4:1″ Mr. Zaatari must show us this instruction in the Quran. There is no provision in the Quran to pay certain inheritors first and divide the rest among other heirs. The fact remains that the Quran in matters of the division of the inheritance is wrong mathematically. The obtuseness of these laws of inheritance is further emphasized in the following example. Consider the case of a man with only one daughter and 10 sons. According to the Quran, the daughter receives half while all the sons must share among themselves the other half. So each will receive not more than 1/20 of the inheritance. But this would contradict the other ruling that a male is to receive twice the share of the female. Of course for 1400 years Muslims have practiced Islam and somehow they managed to make these confusing laws work. How they did it? They reinterpreted, adjusted and compromised to make sense of these nonsense laws. They put all the inheritance in a pool and gave to each male child twice the share of their female siblings. This solution, though satisfies one of the ruling of the Quran about the inheritance, it contradicts the other. Despite all these incongruencies and errors the real problem with these laws is not the fact that they do not add up. The problem is in the inherent injustice that they embody. A fair minded person cannot avoid but to question, why daughters should receive half of what the sons receive? Why sisters receive less than brothers? And why a widower is entitled to double the share than a widow? Why the Quran states Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??to the male, a portion equal to that of two femalesÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â? (4:11). Think of a man with four wives. All the wives have to share the Ã???????Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¼ of his wealth, if he has no children and 1/8 if he has. In the first case each wife will receive 1/16 of the inheritance and in the second case 1/32. How a woman who may not be young enough to remarry can survive with such meager share in a male dominated society as Islamic countries? On the other hand a man who loses all his four wives will inherit half to Ã???????Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¼ of every wifeÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s wealth. IsnÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t this the formula to enrich the men and impoverish the women? It is easier to forget the mathematical errors of the Quran than forgive its injustice. The verse (4:175) claims that Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã? As we saw, the above laws are anything but clear. They do not add up, the portions are not clearly defined, and the shares are distributed unfairly. It is up to Muslims to decide whether Allah, does not have the Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??knowledge of all thingsÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â, cannot add simple fractions, is confused and unfair or that the Quran is mistaken, and Muhammad was not a prophet of God. It is one or the other. You decide. Posted by ahmedsalib Filed in News by Others, TRUTH |
Tvebak wrote: |
Hi Ahmed |
Tvebak wrote: |
Some questions to your translation. |
Tvebak wrote: |
Does "walad" mean child? |
Tvebak wrote: |
About the 1/3 or 2/3 is it only when there's more than 2 daughters and not also when there's 2 daughters? |
Tvebak wrote: |
Cheers and peace |
JulianCharteris wrote: |
Ahmed, If a man dies and leaves a daughter, a wife, and parents:
daughter gets 1/2, parents get 1/6 each = 1/3, wife gets 1/4 = 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 = 6/12 + 4/12 + 3/12 = 13/12 So who contributes the additional 1/12? |
JulianCharteris wrote: |
Change that to wife leaves husband, daughter and parents.
daughter gets 1/2, parents get 1/6 each = 1/3, husband gets 1/4 = 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 = 6/12 + 4/12 + 3/12 = 13/12 |
Tvebak wrote: |
Does "walad" mean child? |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
The word Walad commonly known to be "Son" but grammatically it should mean a child (i.e. a son or daughter), if you look carefully to 4:11 starting words, you should read the words [Yusikum Allah Fi Awlaadakum....], Awlaadakum here is the plural of Walad, and in no way it means "Sons", because just after that, the verse said (for the male portion is double the female portion), i.e. Awlaad means (sons and daughters) therefore Walad means (a son or a daughter |
Tvebak wrote: |
I was under the impression that "bint" means "girl" or "daughter" and "walad" means "boy" or "son" ie. is masculin. |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
Hi
Wrong son means "Bunnai" |
Tvebak wrote: |
Hi Ahmed |
Tvebak wrote: |
you just yourself stated that "wallad" commonly is known as "son". |
Tvebak wrote: |
But as far as I can see "walad" is predominately used as "boy" ie. for "male". |
Tvebak wrote: |
But besides this, the Quran has another word for "child"/"children": Is it "tifl"? |
Tvebak wrote: |
but anyways it's used in the following places "alttifli" in 24.31 "tiflan" in 22.05, 40.67. And this word seems to be the "gender-neutral" word for "child". |
Tvebak wrote: |
About your translation I have another question regarding "brothers". Should it not be "siblings", "ikhwatun", in 4.11?
Cheers and peace |
JulianCharteris wrote: |
Question for Ahmed. A son gets the share equal of two females.
A man has a wife and son and 2 parents. What does the son get? |
BMZ wrote: |
My hat off to you, Ahmed. Thanks for explaining the basics.
You wrote so well: رَبُّ الْمَشْرِقَيْنِ وَرَبُّ الْمَغْرِبَيْنِ (17) [The Quran ; 55:17] -> I.e. Lord of the two easts and Lord of the two wests The FFI goons will now be asking you,"How can there be two Easts and two Wests?" Don't answer but instead ask them to explain. Can you post that question to Ali Sina and ask him to explain? Salaams BMZ |
JulianCharteris wrote: |
What does a son get if a man leaves a son and ten daughters, no parents and no wife? |
JulianCharteris wrote: |
So if there is no son or the son dies, the daughters' share drops from $1000 to $400 each? |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
Singular words with an added Alif in the end due to the Irab are very common in the Arabic language, here is 3 examples from many in the Quran, in each example I will show you the singular word without an Alif then the same word but with an Alif, and in both cases the word stayed SINGULAR
Let me start with the word Quran, here it is without an Alif at the end: Alif Lam Ra. These are the signs of the Book and an obvious Quran. [The Quran ; 15:1] الَرَ تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ وَقُرْآنٍ مُّبِينٍ (1) -> See قُرْآنٍ , Quran, i.e. Quran Here it is with an Alif at the end: A Book of which the verses are explained, an Arabic Quran for a people who know: [The Quran ; 41:3] كِتَابٌ فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ (3) -> See قُرْآنًا , Qurana, i.e. Quran In both cases the word Quran or Qurana stayed SINGULAR Another example is the word Sullum, Ladder, here it is without an Alif at the end: Or have they a ladder by which they listen? Then let their listener bring a clear authority. [The Quran ; 52:38] أَمْ لَهُمْ سُلَّمٌ يَسْتَمِعُونَ فِيهِ فَلْيَأْتِ مُسْتَمِعُهُم بِسُلْطَانٍ مُّبِينٍ (3 -> See سُلَّمٌ , Sullum, i.e. Ladder Here it is with an Alif at the end: And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek a tunnel into the earth or a ladder in the heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant. [The Quran ; 6:35] وَإِن كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَن تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاء فَتَأْتِيَهُم بِآيَةٍ وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَى فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ (35) -> See سُلَّمًا , Sulluma, i.e. Ladder In both cases the word Sullum or Sulluma stayed SINGULAR And finally, the word Maqam Place, here it is without an Alif at the end: Surely the pious are in a secure place [The Quran ; 44:51] إِنَّ الْمُتَّقِينَ فِي مَقَامٍ أَمِينٍ (51) See مَقَامٍ , Maqam, i.e. Place And here it is with an Alif at the end: And during a part of the night, pray continuously beyond what is incumbent on you; maybe your Lord will raise you to a place of great glory. [The Quran ; 17:79] وَمِنَ اللَّيْلِ فَتَهَجَّدْ بِهِ نَافِلَةً لَّكَ عَسَى أَن يَبْعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَامًا مَّحْمُودًا (79) See مَقَامًا , Maqama, i.e. Place In both cases the word Maqam or Maqama stayed SINGULAR |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
Singular words with an added Alif in the end due to the Irab are very common in the Arabic language, here is 3 examples from many in the Quran, in each example I will show you the singular word without an Alif then the same word but with an Alif, and in both cases the word stayed SINGULAR
Let me start with the word Quran, here it is without an Alif at the end: Alif Lam Ra. These are the signs of the Book and an obvious Quran. [The Quran ; 15:1] الَرَ تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ وَقُرْآنٍ مُّبِينٍ (1) -> See قُرْآنٍ , Quran, i.e. Quran Here it is with an Alif at the end: A Book of which the verses are explained, an Arabic Quran for a people who know: [The Quran ; 41:3] كِتَابٌ فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ (3) -> See قُرْآنًا , Qurana, i.e. Quran In both cases the word Quran or Qurana stayed SINGULAR Another example is the word Sullum, Ladder, here it is without an Alif at the end: Or have they a ladder by which they listen? Then let their listener bring a clear authority. [The Quran ; 52:38] أَمْ لَهُمْ سُلَّمٌ يَسْتَمِعُونَ فِيهِ فَلْيَأْتِ مُسْتَمِعُهُم بِسُلْطَانٍ مُّبِينٍ (3 -> See سُلَّمٌ , Sullum, i.e. Ladder Here it is with an Alif at the end: And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek a tunnel into the earth or a ladder in the heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant. [The Quran ; 6:35] وَإِن كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَن تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاء فَتَأْتِيَهُم بِآيَةٍ وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَى فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ (35) -> See سُلَّمًا , Sulluma, i.e. Ladder In both cases the word Sullum or Sulluma stayed SINGULAR And finally, the word Maqam Place, here it is without an Alif at the end: Surely the pious are in a secure place [The Quran ; 44:51] إِنَّ الْمُتَّقِينَ فِي مَقَامٍ أَمِينٍ (51) See مَقَامٍ , Maqam, i.e. Place And here it is with an Alif at the end: And during a part of the night, pray continuously beyond what is incumbent on you; maybe your Lord will raise you to a place of great glory. [The Quran ; 17:79] وَمِنَ اللَّيْلِ فَتَهَجَّدْ بِهِ نَافِلَةً لَّكَ عَسَى أَن يَبْعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَامًا مَّحْمُودًا (79) See مَقَامًا , Maqama, i.e. Place In both cases the word Maqam or Maqama stayed SINGULAR |
ronny wrote: |
hello AhmedBahgat,
this was a nice explanation, understandable even for a novice in arabic like me. i do have 2 questions. how come ثُلُثَا in 4:11 doesnt end with the double fatha as in the examples above where each word ends with the double fatha. are there exemples in the quran where a word ends with alif without the double fatha as in 4:11. thank you |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
my understanding above needs further work from me to make sure I got it right, so keep an eye on this thread |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
In regard to your question of an example of a verse where a noun is ending with an extra Alif while not having the double Fatiha, I believe there are many but can I confirm first, are you after a noun with an ending (extra) alif, or are you after a noun that is DUAL with an ending Alif? |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
my understanding above needs further work from me to make sure I got it right, so keep an eye on this thread |
ronny wrote: |
ok i hope you keep this thread updated when you can, its an extremely important topic that could clear many misconceptions in the muslim world. |
ronny wrote: |
also i noticed this thread is part of a debate you had with people who couldnt refute the grammatical analysis so they presented the objection that how come 2 daughters get 1/3 while 1 daughter gets 1/2. |
ronny wrote: |
i would reply that the remaining share of the inheritance can be distributed as the deceased wishes it in his testament (he doesnt have to give all the remained to the orphans or needy), he may give most of it to the daughters to compensate and the rest to the orphans and needy per 4:8. |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
In regard to your question of an example of a verse where a noun is ending with an extra Alif while not having the double Fatiha, I believe there are many but can I confirm first, are you after a noun with an ending (extra) alif, or are you after a noun that is DUAL with an ending Alif? |
ronny wrote: |
im looking for a word of the same nature as thulthaa in 4:11, NOT dual with an alif at the end and without the double fatha. |
ronny wrote: |
also please could you explain why does thulthaa not have a double fatha, as opposed to the examples you gave of singular words ending with alif and double fatha. |
ronny wrote: |
and finally is there a case where a dual noun ends only with an alif (that is without alif + noon or ya + noon)? i dont think it can be possible, but im asking to make sure. |
ronny wrote: |
hello ahmed and thanks for your time again. |
ronny wrote: |
the best argument that could be presented in favor of thulthaa in 4:11 being DUAL is that it does not have tanween. |
ronny wrote: |
but i tend to believe it is in the singular because of 4:176 where thulth is clearly in the dual form with alif + noon at the end, |
ronny wrote: |
and i see no reason why the noon should be absent from thultha in 4:11 if the verse meant it in the dual form. is there any grammatical reason for such omission of the noon? |
ronny wrote: |
also if we could find other instances where a word(s) ends with alif and without tanween as in 4:11 while remaining SINGULAR then it would further strengthen the argument that thulth in 4:11 must be in the singular. |
ronny wrote: |
salaam
it would be interesting to find this grammar rule permitting the omission of the noon at the end of a dual word, and see if it applies to 4:11. unfortunately this is beyond my arabic knowledge. i was aware that Quran reciters often -if not always- omit the tanween in their recitation when the word is at the end of an ayah, however this is not a conclusive example of a singular noun ending with alif but without tanween as we are contending for 4:11. i am currently searching for such word. |