shindeiru wrote: |
Assalam alaykum brothers
AhmedBahgat how are you? i would appreciate some help with the following word طائر which is translated differently in some verses. what is the true meaning of the word in these verses 36:18-19 قَالُوا إِنَّا تَطَيَّرْنَا بِكُمْ لَئِن لَّمْ تَنتَهُوا لَنَرْجُمَنَّكُمْ وَلَيَمَسَّنَّكُم مِّنَّا عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ قَالُوا طَائِرُكُمْ مَعَكُمْ أَئِن ذُكِّرْتُم بَلْ أَنتُمْ قَوْمٌ مُّسْرِفُونَ 17:13 وَكُلَّ إِنسَانٍ أَلْزَمْنَاهُ طَآئِرَهُ فِي عُنُقِهِ وَنُخْرِجُ لَهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ كِتَابًا يَلْقَاهُ مَنشُورًا 7:131 فَإِذَا جَاءتْهُمُ الْحَسَنَةُ قَالُواْ لَنَا هَـذِهِ وَإِن تُصِبْهُمْ سَيِّئَةٌ يَطَّيَّرُواْ بِمُوسَى وَمَن مَّعَهُ أَلا إِنَّمَا طَائِرُهُمْ عِندَ اللّهُ وَلَـكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ thanks |
shindeiru wrote: |
hi bro and thanks
so would you say that ta'ir has only a negative connotation? i dont know if it occurs elswehere in the quran, but in these verses it seems to be in a negative context where the people are told that they bear full responsibility for their ta'ir |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
This is a very tough Quran word btw, yet it is still used commonly by the Arabs even in their street language, for example it is commonly said by an Arab who was driven mad by some thoughts or ideas said by another person, Inta Tayart Demaghy, i.e. you caused my head to fly |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
This is a very tough Quran word btw, yet it is still used commonly by the Arabs even in their street language, for example it is commonly said by an Arab who was driven mad by some thoughts or ideas said by another person, Inta Tayart Demaghy, i.e. you caused my head to fly |
shindeiru wrote: |
yes definately, now that you mention this common familiar arabic expression.
im lebanese and we do very often say "inta tayyartani min 3aqli" lit. "you made me fly away from my mind" in the sense that "you confused me". so the word does have a negative connotation. |
shindeiru wrote: |
at first i thought it could be neutral because of 17:13 where i was assuming that Allah was saying that each person is responsible for his choices (good or bad) but i guess that, considering its use throughout the quran and its widely understood meaning, ta'ir means sort of "confusion".
so this renders 17:13 as Allah saying that each person's confusion is tied around his neck (ie eachone is responsible for it) and this is reinforced by the ending of the verse which says that eachone will be told to read from his book of deeds to testify to this fact, that he is the sole responsible for his confusion. |
shindeiru wrote: |
this is indeed passioning, this tough work of translating the quran. good luck bro |
shindeiru wrote: |
another quick question, did you refute the FFI people on 16:69 and the bees eating thamaraat in the past? |
shindeiru wrote: |
i wouldnt be surprised if they ignored it and kept playing their old tune, as they usually do. |
shindeiru wrote: |
my arabic skills are very basic (never learned it at school) so i based my refutation on the use of fakiha and thamaraat throughout the quran, and thanks to your accessquran i managed to quickly find the verses where these words are used. |
Tvebak wrote: |
Hi Ahmed |
Tvebak wrote: |
Just a dumb question does, but was is meant by the highlighted part? |
Quote: |
Then to eat of all the produce (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men: verily in this is a Sign for those who give thought.
Cheers |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
You would have had a valid argument if the Quran said it as such : كُلِي مِن ثمرات كل شيء , Kuli Min Thamrat Kul Shai, i.e. eat of the produce of all things |
shindeiru wrote: | ||
wassalaam i actually used simple common sense to refute this objection of theirs, that the verse is addressing the bee, telling it to eat from all the thamaraat so it MUST be talking about the thamaraat FOR IT. the verse was not telling it to eat grass, the thamaraat of the cow loool. these are obvious things for us believers but for the ennemy of faith and guidance, its even more complicated than the theory of relativity. but if we add to simple common sense, arabic expertise and the proof from the quran as you did above, then this objection is reduced to rubbles. poor FFI |
shindeiru wrote: |
hi Ahmed
based on the common usage of tair in both our countries, my opinion is that the best word for it is "confusion". we always use it in such context when someone or something causes us not to be able to think straight anymore. although both sakara and tair imply the same state of mind, they do have a subtle diference. sakara is more extreme since it implies that the person does not have anymore control over his body and mind while tair means that the person is only confused mentally. so what i suggest is this: you should use "confused" for tair and another more extreme word for sakara. what do you think? for example in 22:2 "On the day when you shall see it, every woman giving suck shall quit in confusion what she suckled, and every pregnant woman shall lay down her burden, and you shall see men intoxicated, and they shall not be intoxicated but the chastisement of Allah will be severe" instead of using intoxicated or confused in the first sakara, maybe you could use either a phrase such as "behaving erratically" or some word which implies an extreme confusion of both body and mind because if you look at the verse, this is exactly the situation described in that verse, people out of control of their body and minds. |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
however I am happy with intoxicated because I started to believe that intoxicated does not always mean drunk, rather a mental status that may even affect the control of the physical body, what do you think? |
shindeiru wrote: |
salaam brother
i will give you my rendering of the verse depending on the way i understand it, it is the same as yours but maybe with different words. and with your superior arabic skills you should see if it conforms with the arabic of the quran. 36:18 They said: we are confused by you. If you do not stop; we will surely stone you, and there will certainly touch you from us a painful torture. 36:19 Your confusion is from you, arent you being reminded? Rather, you are an extravagant people. |