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Here is the rest of my debate with Always_Faithful from FFI:
Always_Faithful from FFI said:
Ahmed
All you've done is show me min ba'd, which means after. However, in the context, the usage is different. For example, in 2:56 - we arose you after your death. Without "ba'd" it would mean then we rose you from your death. He is refering to the antecedent (him dying), since it is the event that leads to his revival. I hope you see what I'm getting at (it's late so I'm babbling).
Now, in our clip of verses, God is describing a series of events in series. He does not need to be refering to the antecedent, unlike in the examples you gave.
Bottom line: The fact that Allah did not use "min ba'd" in the verse is totally irrelevant, since it refers to a separate part of the syntax; it is not used in direct conjunction with thumma. It depends entirely on the context (if after is necessary to the sentence). You have not proven then"min ba'd" is always necessary, you've just shown me a few cases where it happens to show up.
A few cases for you to consider that shows how irrelevant your examples are:
E.g. 1: I parked the car, then I got out and walked home
E.g. 2: I crashed the car, then staggered out of the car after undooing my strap.
"Then" means the same in both, and this applies to all languages (since we're talking about temporal semantics, not grammar).
I have the feeling you're going to dismiss or slam dunk me, but I really don't care. You've presented me with a non sequitur in your attempt to produce a defense from nothing. Show me an instance where thumma is used when it could not mean "next" without "min ba'd" (i.e. where it must mean moreover), and we'll talk. Until then, you're giving me your opinion on Arabic, which is not as infallible as you seem to think it is.
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No dismissing here but possibly a slam dunk, here is another verse with the word Thumma for you to think about before you sleep
Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, MOREOVER said to him, Be, and he was [The Quran ; 3:59]
إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثِمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ (59)
See-? Allah CREATED (Past Tense) Adam Thumma said to Adam after He created him, Be and He was, therefore Thumma must mean MOREOVER
now if the ignorant will translate Thumma in 3:59 as Allah CREATED Adam THEN He said to him be and he was , then I say they are dumb because Adam was created already in the first event, but the the second even is "Be and he was,", i.e. the two events must be linked by MOREOVER, not THEN
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Always_Faithful replied:
You see this is the type of argument you should be using to prove your point. A direct reference, and not a non sequitur. I hope you now realise why your earlier post was fallacious.
However, this is the word I am interested with: خَلَقَهُ. I want you to really think about this word. It says that Alah formed (this is a more appropriate word) Adam from dust, then said "be" and he was. Adam was not a human being with a soul before Allah gave him life, he was merely formed from dust - and you know very well that Islam teaches that a human soul is not created from dust, but that it is given to a body, and that a human is not complete until he has it. This is very similar to the Biblical story.
There is nothing anachronistic about the verse if you look at it the correct way, especially when you take into account its immediate parallel with the Book of Genesis.
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Always_Faithful wrote:
You see this is the type of argument you should be using to prove your point.
Hello
I know what arguments I use in my discussions, thanks
Always_Faithful wrote:
A direct reference, and not a non sequitur. I hope you now realise why your earlier post was fallacious.
I hope you realise that you lack the language high level knowledge to understand my first argument regarding the words Min Baad, see, you are just an average Arabic speaker, nothing more really, there is more into Arabic than just speaking and reading it
Always_Faithful wrote:
However, this is the word I am interested with: خَلَقَهُ. I want you to really think about this word. It says that Alah formed (this is a more appropriate word) Adam from dust, then said "be" and he was. Adam was not a human being with a soul before Allah gave him life, he was merely formed from dust - and you know very well that Islam teaches that a human soul is not created from dust, but that it is given to a body, and that a human is not complete until he has it. This is very similar to the Biblical story.
There is nothing anachronistic about the verse if you look at it the correct way, especially when you take into account its immediate parallel with the Book of Genesis.
The corrupt Bible has nothing to so with this argument, on the other hand I'm not going to ping pong you with your refutes, I will only leave it to the public to make their opinion but I will keep hammering you with one verse after another (and I have got plenty), here is another Thumma that should mean MOREOVER
And most surely I am most Forgiving to him who repents and believes and does good, MOREOVER was guided. [The Quran ; 20:82]
وَإِنِّي لَغَفَّارٌ لِّمَن تَابَ وَآمَنَ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا ثُمَّ اهْتَدَى (82)
-> See the first event who repents and believes and does good, that is enough to conclude that this person is guided, now the second event that came after Thumma is اهْتَدَى , i.e. Guided, therefore the word Thumma MUST MEAN MOREOEVER
Always_Faithful wrote:
So much for the Slam Dunk.
How about 20:82, that must be a real slam dunk, remember I got more slam dunks
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Always_Faithful replied:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello
I know what arguments I use in my discussions, thanks
Good to hear.
Quote:
I hope you realise that you lack the language high level knowledge to understand my first argument regarding the words Min Baad, see, you are just an average Arabic speaker, nothing more really, there is more into Arabic than just speaking and reading it
That's your unsubstantiated opinion, dear Ahmed. I could say the same about you, but then again it would just be conjecture. If by an average Arab speaker you're comparing me to the likes of professional translators, then average must be bloody good.
I understood your first argument perfectly, which is why I called it irrelevant. You didn't seemed to differentiate between semantics and grammar. As by the example I gave, the two terms are different parts the of syntax.
Quote:
The corrupt Bible has nothing to so with this argument,
I gave you a linguistic and theological refutation of your argument, the point about the Bible was just to show you the parallel, so don't dwell on it. Can you deny that a created body does not entail that it is complete (i.e. that it has ru7)?
Quote:
on the other hand I'm not going to ping pong you with your refutes, I will only leave it to the public to make their opinion but I will keep hammering you with one verse after another (and I have got plenty), here is another Thumma that should mean MOREOVER
Why just bounce around from one verse to another? Do you concede that my explaintion was indeed a refutation?
Quote:
And most surely I am most Forgiving to him who repents and believes and does good, MOREOVER was guided. [The Quran ; 20:82]
وَإِنِّي لَغَفَّارٌ لِّمَن تَابَ وَآمَنَ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا ثُمَّ اهْتَدَى (82)
-> See the first event who repents and believes and does good, that is enough to conclude that this person is guided, now the second event that came after Thumma is اهْتَدَى , i.e. Guided, therefore the word Thumma MUST MEAN MOREOEVER
My must it? If you do good and repent, then you can be on the right path. If you are already guided, then it is taken for granted that you're doing those things, so moreover doesn't work.
In fact, "moreover" means that the verse would be pleonastic (i.e. redundant).
Once again, you appear to be disagreeing with all the major translators, simply because you are assuming that someone who does those things are on the right path. You need to be continuously doing so to be on the right path, so being fully guided (towards slavation) comes later. _________________ http://free-islam.com
Posted:
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 10:26 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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I replied to the above:
Quote:
I hope you realise that you lack the language high level knowledge to understand my first argument regarding the words Min Baad, see, you are just an average Arabic speaker, nothing more really, there is more into Arabic than just speaking and reading it
Always_Faithful wrote:
That's your opinion, dear Ahmed. I could say the same about you, but then again it would just be conjecture.
Look, I hope you don't get upset, I call a spade a spade, however I know you can say the same but you didn't, in fact what you said a few days back regarding my Arabic knowledge is the opposite to what you are implying that you may say.
Always_Faithful wrote:
If by an average Arab speaker you're comparing me to the likes of professional translators, then average must be bloody good.
a translator does not have to know Arabic well, however it will be a bonus if they do have high level of Arabic liguistics, I doubt that most tranlsators have that option, in fact I doubt that most of them were native Arabic speakers from the first palce, they made luaghable mistakes, everyone of them
Always_Faithful wrote:
I understood your first argument perfectly, which is why I called it irrelevant. You didn't seemed to differentiate between semantics and grammar.
It is not semantic nor grammar, it is just words making context, do you understand that?
Always_Faithful wrote:
As by the example I gave, the two terms are different parts the of syntax.
don't worry about it
Quote:
The corrupt Bible has nothing to so with this argument,
Always_Faithful wrote:
Did I say it did? I gave you a linguistic explaination of the verse, the point about the Bible was just to show you the parallel.
you mentioned parallel thing with the bible, now does the bible have the word Thumma in it?
Quote:
on the other hand I'm not going to ping pong you with your refutes, I will only leave it to the public to make their opinion but I will keep hammering you with one verse after another (and I have got plenty), here is another Thumma that should mean MOREOVER
Why just bounce around from one verse to another? Do you concede that my explaintion was indeed a refutation?
Quote:
And most surely I am most Forgiving to him who repents and believes and does good, MOREOVER was guided. [The Quran ; 20:82]
وَإِنِّي لَغَفَّارٌ لِّمَن تَابَ وَآمَنَ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا ثُمَّ اهْتَدَى (82)
-> See the first event who repents and believes and does good, that is enough to conclude that this person is guided, now the second event that came after Thumma is اهْتَدَى , i.e. Guided, therefore the word Thumma MUST MEAN MOREOEVER
Always_Faithful wrote:
My must it? If you do good and repent, then you can be on the right path. If you are already guided, then it is taken for granted that you're doing those things, so moreover doesn't work.
excuse me the verbs in the verse are all past tense, it seems you totally overlooked this fact
who REPENTED, BELIEVED AND DID good deeds MOREOVER was GUIDED
Always_Faithful wrote:
In fact, "moreover" means that the verse would be pleonastic (i.e. redundant).
haha
Dismissed
Always_Faithful wrote:
Once again, you appear to be disagreeing with all the major translators,
Of course, do you think I'm dmb as many of you are to follow some idiots who only did it for popularity?
hopefully in a few years you will receive my translation copy free
Always_Faithful wrote:
simply because you are assuming that someone who does those things are on the right path.
oh please, don't give me silly argument because I demolished another joker you had,
Repent + Believe + Do Good Deeds = Guided
no one can bloody deny that, do you want further quran evidences?
Always_Faithful wrote:
You need to be continuously doing so to be on the right path,
the word continuesly does not appear in the verse, why you are injecting new words to the translation?
this is not honestly man
Always_Faithful wrote:
so being fully guided (towards slavation) comes later.
Dismissed, now let;s look at another slam dunk, the translation is by Yusuf Ali btw:
Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! [The Quran ; 5:75]
مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ (75)
-> See what Yususf Ali used for Thumma, YET, this is because THEN can not be valid, the verse is talking about Mary and her son, Allah is saying See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them, now the second event after Thumma does not mean it was after that event of explaining His signs, rather something that seen all the times that is why Y A used YET, yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
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Always_Faithful replied:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Look, I hope you don't get upset, I call a spade a spade, however I know you can say the same but you didn't, in fact what you said a few days back regarding my Arabic knowledge is the opposite to what you are implying that you may say.
You're not calling a spade a spade at all. You're making assumptions.
Sure, I've said that I respect your Arabic in the past, but I'm very free to change my mind on that.
Always_Faithful wrote:
a translator does not have to know Arabic well, however it will be a bonus if they do have high level of Arabic liguistics, I doubt that most tranlsators have that option, in fact I doubt that most of them were native Arabic speakers from the first palce, they made luaghable mistakes, everyone of them
Pickthal is notoriously capable at Arabic.
Quote:
It is not semantic nor grammar, it is just words making context, do you understand that?
Whatever they are, they are different parts of the syntax, and they are temporally different.
Quote:
you mentioned parallel thing with the bible, now does the bible have the word Thumma in it?
If you had read my post, you'd see that the mention of the Bible was just to show that, in Islam and Christianity, the idea that a human is given a soul after creation is the same (before the ru7 is given to them). Stop dwelling on such a side-point; I clearly refuted the argument without it.
Quote:
excuse me the verbs in the verse are all past tense, it seems you totally overlooked this fact
who REPENTED, BELIEVED AND DID good deeds MOREOVER was GUIDED
So? What does tense have to with this? It still makes: Who repented and believed and did good deeds and then was guided.
Quote:
Always_Faithful wrote:
In fact, "moreover" means that the verse would be pleonastic (i.e. redundant).
haha
Dismissed
The concept of being on the right path is that you have done good, prayed, etc; therefore it is redundant to say that they are on the right path as well as being good. If you claimed that it meant "therefore", you'd have a point. Otherwise, you're wrong.
Quote:
Of course, do you think I'm dmb as many of you are to follow some idiots who only did it for popularity?
They very often disagree with each-other, so it's irrational of an Arab-speaker to follow any of them. I just find it strange that you're willing to disagree with all of them based on an assumption. If you had anything compelling, I'd have to value your translation more.
Quote:
hopefully in a few years you will receive my translation copy free
Cool.
Quote:
oh please, don't give me silly argument because I demolished another joker you had,
Repent + Believe + Do Good Deeds = Guided
no one can bloody deny that, do you want further quran evidences?
the word continuesly does not appear in the verse, why you are injecting new words to the translation?
this is not honestly man
So you're saying that doing a good deed once (or temporarily) is enough to be on the right path? Be rational, mate.
As a vague example, the Qur'an says that you should establish prayer three times a day, not simply as a one-off. That implies that you need to sustain the pious lifestyle to be on the right path.
Quote:
now let;s look at another slam dunk, the translation is by Yusuf Ali btw:
Alright
Quote:
Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! [The Quran ; 5:75]
مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ (75)
-> See what Yususf Ali used for Thumma, YET, this is because THEN can not be valid, the verse is talking about Mary and her son, Allah is saying See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them, now the second event after Thumma does not mean it was after that event of explaining His signs, rather something that seen all the times that is why Y A used YET, yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
Firstly, I thought you didn't look at translations?
Secondly, the word used is "yet", not moreover. "Yet" here does not negate either "moreover" nor "then". It is pragmatic.
Thirdly, this sentence works very strongly in my favour. You can't reject a sign until after it has been given (sequentially next). It absolutely cannot mean moreover here. To see how the word then is implied, look at this literal translation:
See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; then they looketh not.
Makes sense, but would make more sense if the word yet is added to the English version for the meaning to be made apparant.
Quote:
That must be another slam dunk hey
It's actually the worst one so far, as it helps me prove you wrong. _________________ http://free-islam.com
Posted:
Sun 19 Aug, 2007 10:29 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
I replied:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Look, I hope you don't get upset, I call a spade a spade, however I know you can say the same but you didn't, in fact what you said a few days back regarding my Arabic knowledge is the opposite to what you are implying that you may say.
Always_Faithful wrote:
You're not calling a spade a spade at all. You're making assumptions.
Good morning
No I'm not, I can tell that you are good in Arabic but not perfect, please don't underestimate my solid Arabic language knowledge
Always_Faithfu wrote:
Sure, I've said that I respect your Arabic in the past, but I'm very free to change my mind on that.
Sure you can change your mind anytime you wish, the fact will stay the same that I was one of the best Arabic language students for at least 6 years when I was 11 to 17 years old, I have loads of Arabic Nahaw and Sarf with me currently, do you have any that you refer to?, mate the Arabic teachers themselves used to recommend me by name to compete against uni students in the Arabic language, and I was a year 12 student at the time, this is a fact bro.
AhmeBahgat wrote:
a translator does not have to know Arabic well, however it will be a bonus if they do have high level of Arabic linguistics, I doubt that most translators have that option, in fact I doubt that most of them were native Arabic speakers from the first place, they made laughable mistakes, everyone of them
Always_Faithfu wrote:
Pickthal is notoriously capable at Arabic.
Great let me now let Pickthal double slam dunk you, the following translation is by Pickthal:
There shall be no sin (imputed) unto those who believe and do good works for what they may have eaten (in the past). So be mindful of your duty (to Allah), and believe, and do good works; AND AGAIN: be mindful of your duty, and believe; AND ONCE AGAIN: be mindful of your duty, and do right. Allah loveth the good.
-> See, we have three events separated by 2 Thumma(s), the first event So be mindful of your duty (to Allah), and believe, and do good works, then the word Thumma then the second event be mindful of your duty, and believe, can you see that the second event is included in the first event, that is why Pickthal translated Thumma as AND AGAIN. it sounds like MOREOVER, don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t you agree?, then we read the third event after the second Thumma, the third event goes like this: be mindful of your duty, and do right , again that sounds like the first and second event, nothing new really, that is why Pickhtal translated Thumma as AND ONCE AGAIN, and again it sounds like MOREOVER, don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t you agree mister?
That must be the biggest slam dunk ever, don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t forget that it�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s a double slam as well (double Thumma)
Now for your last comment I will only select parts to reply to, sorry mate I have a lot to repoly to as well my own work.
Always_Faithfu wrote:
If you had read my post, you'd see that the mention of the Bible was just to show that, in Islam and Christianity, the idea that a human is given a soul after creation is the same (before the ru7 is given to them). Stop dwelling on such a side-point; I clearly refuted the argument without it.
You refuted nothing so far, all your weapons are nothing but wishful thin king that Thumma must mean whatever suite the low desires of the enemy of Islam. And unfortunately you are blindly following them despite you have been blessed of knowing Arabic. What a shame
Quote:
excuse me the verbs in the verse are all past tense, it seems you totally overlooked this fact
who REPENTED, BELIEVED AND DID good deeds MOREOVER was GUIDED
Always_Faithfu wrote:
So? What does tense have to with this? It still makes: Who repented and believed and did good deeds and then was guided.
Wrong, because if we have a person that already repented, believed and did good deeds then that person is already guided, how about 5:93 above, it is the same and repeated 3 times, how are you going to refute that mate?
Always_Faithfu wrote:
oncept of being on the right path is that you have done good, prayed, etc; therefore it is redundant to say that they are on the right path as well as being good. If you claimed that it meant "therefore", you'd have a point. Otherwise, you're wrong.
Haha, then 5:93 is not talking about any guidance, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s have another look from 5:93
1) The first event: So be mindful of your duty (to Allah), and believe, and do good works,
2) Thumma (AND AGAIN), (MOREOVE)
3) The second event: be mindful of your duty, and believe,
4) Thumma (AND ONCE AGAIN), (MOREOVER)
5) The third event: be mindful of your duty, and do right
Hahahah, see, this is irrefutable bro, please don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t waste my time with lame argument and wishful thinking
Quote:
Of course, do you think I'm dumb as many of you are to follow some idiots who only did it for popularity?
Always_Faithfu wrote:
They very often disagree with each-other, so it's irrational of an Arab-speaker to follow any of them. I just find it strange that you're willing to disagree with all of them based on an assumption. If you had anything compelling, I'd have to value your translation more.
Of course I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m willing to disagree with any human who promote or distribute the wrong information about Allah words, I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m not a prophet but I believe that I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m blessed with the knowledge of the Arabic Quran, no fame in here, I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m not after that, ironically it seems that the fame is after me and I don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t want that, the more stupidity I see by those so called translators the more determined I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m to finish my Quran translation, my problem that my time can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t be fully dedicated to such task because I have a lot of responsibilities regarding my IT work, but as I promised you, if I finish it you will be one of the first to receive it, as well it is not going to be another translation on the bookshelf rather it will expose all the mistakes of all other translations as well or at least the most popular ones.
See the Arabic speakers got done by the deception (directly or not) in their hearsay hadith and the non Arabic speakers got done by the deception in all these flawed translations.
Quote:
oh please, don't give me silly argument because I demolished another joker you had,
Repent + Believe + Do Good Deeds = Guided
no one can bloody deny that, do you want further quran evidences?
the word continuously does not appear in the verse, why you are injecting new words to the translation?
this is not honestly man
Always_Faithfu wrote:
So you're saying that doing a good deed once (or temporarily) is enough to be on the right path? Be rational, mate.
Again the verse never said do good deed once, however forget that verse to save time and our energy., please try to refute 5:93 translated by Pickthal whom you said was good in Arabic
Always_Faithfu wrote:
As a vague example, the Qur'an says that you should establish prayer three times a day, not simply as a one-off. That implies that you need to sustain the pious lifestyle to be on the right path.
I can NOT accept Quran arguments from anyone (Muslim or not) unless they walk me through the verse to prove their claim, sorry
Quote:
Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! [The Quran ; 5:75]
مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ (75)
-> See what Yususf Ali used for Thumma, YET, this is because THEN can not be valid, the verse is talking about Mary and her son, Allah is saying See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them, now the second event after Thumma does not mean it was after that event of explaining His signs, rather something that seen all the times that is why Y A used YET, yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
Always_Faithfu wrote:
Firstly, I thought you didn't look at translations?
Of course I do and I read many of it, this is how I can see how the non Arabic speakers got done, and this is how I can see the translators mistakes, I only started doing it 4 years ago when I started to debate religion with those Islam haters, prior to that all my Quran experience was in Arabic, so for 4 years so far I see at least a mistake a day by one of those translators , it�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s ridiculous if you ask me, that is why I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m not going to rush my project, even if it will be finished at the end of my life (assumption) without seeing the effect of it.
Always_Faithfu wrote:
Secondly, the word used is "yet", not moreover. "Yet" here does not negate either "moreover" nor "then". It is pragmatic.
Of course I know that, it was a stupid mistake by Y A , but I proved to you that at least Thumma can mean something else.
Now, you can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t deny that AND AGAIN = MOREOVER, as well AND ONCE AGAIN = MOREOVER, would you dare to deny that?
Quote:
That must be another slam dunk hey
Always_Faithfu wrote:
It's actually the worst one so far, as it helps me prove you wrong.
I do understand how hard to concede mistakes, I hope Pickthal with his translation to 5:93 that include 2 Thumma(s) gives the courage to be always faithful and do it
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