Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject: Re:
Walid
I have to go for a few hours, I have 3 comments from you to reply to now, please give me a chance to finish it off and don't make it harder on me with many comments posted before I reply
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
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salam Ahmed,
OK, 3:62 is referring to the Quran. But, again, words can be TRUE in more than one way.
In fact, you can tell me something that actually happened and still be telling me a lie.
Because what actually happened is not important (which has been my whole point all along), it's what the message of those words is. That's all.
And here has been your argument:
1. I believe the stories of the Quran did physically happen.
2. They happened because God never lies to us, and is not like our grannies who make up stories to teach us lessons. God uses real stories.
3. The Quran is from God, so I believe whatever the Quran says.
4. The Quran is from God because no one else has claimed to be it's author.
My problem with your argument (#4) is that you can't just assume that it's from God because no one today, or in WRITTEN history has taken credit for writing it. I'm not saying it's not from God, I'm only saying that we cannot assume that based on the fact that no one has claimed to be it's author (even if someone did today, no one would believe him).
Another problem is that you are using circular logic. You are saying that the no one could've written the Quran because it says it's very beautiful and even jinn found it amazing. Don't you see that?
It's like if I say I'm great because I say I'm great. I don't need any proof of my greatness. My word is proof enough. Would you really think that I'm great just because I say it?
My point is, we cannot ASSUME that the WHOLE book is from God. We can't. Not even the whole, but every word should be scrutinized and put under criticism. Then not only will we know the truth, but we'll have a better understanding of the quran.
Posted:
Wed 15 Nov, 2006 4:06 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
salam Ahmed,
Good morning Walid
phoenix1 wrote:
OK, 3:62 is referring to the Quran. But, again, words can be TRUE in more than one way.
In fact, you can tell me something that actually happened and still be telling me a lie.
Bro, why you are repeating your flawed arguments?, as I said if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful person there will be no need for me to include the word TRUE and yet say a lie, you just don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t make any sense bro, and as I said you have the right to doubt the try to investigate yourself if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m truthful or not, for the Quran which in existence for 1400 years, many doubt the same and many tried to find evidences to the stories in the Quran and of course over the years many stories have been confirmed
Noah and his flood, Moses and splitting the sea, Aad people and they city of columns, Thamud people and their houses on mountains, Lut people and their filthy act and their punishment, and many more, even many scientific facts that in no way can be known at that time, therefore the Quran indeed has been proven that it is the word of Allah and ironically many of those who proved it are many of those who don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t believe in it, the words of Allah must have been true when was revealed 1400 years ago to humanity and stated that Islam will prevail over all other religions, now days we see islam the fastest spreading religion in the world despite all the wrong and negative allegations the people try to link to it, see no human can predict that 1400 years ago yet under the current circumstances it is still the fastest spreading religion in the world, this should be enough for many who have brains to think seriously about the message sent to them from their God
phoenix1 wrote:
Because what actually happened is not important (which has been my whole point all along), it's what the message of those words is. That's all.
well what message exactly?
That Allah sent messengers to a group of people and they didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t listen to it so they earned a punishment? That is the main lesson in all these prophets stories
Why Allah gave examples that never happened?, to scare us or what?
See that is your major flaw, because a God can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t say that He did or will so such and such and it never happen, it has to be a lie if it didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t happen or will not happen, however I believe a human can lie and do just that but God is not a human to do that, your flaw is simply the result that you are ignorant to what and how the God should be as many ignorant humans are, no conflict here neither I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m amazed with your silly and contradictory claims
phoenix1 wrote:
And here has been your argument:
but you dodged many of the questions I asked you, why is that Walid?, at least tell me that you reserve your right not to answer those questions not just turn a blind eye
Quote:
1. I believe the stories of the Quran did physically happen.
2. They happened because God never lies to us, and is not like our grannies who make up stories to teach us lessons. God uses real stories.
3. The Quran is from God, so I believe whatever the Quran says.
4. The Quran is from God because no one else has claimed to be it's author.
Of course and that is what makes me a believer, see, when you say I believe it means you believe in something that you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t or didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see, and that is what we have been created for, TO BELIEVE, now you want to take this main and only requirement out of the picture, hence you will be left with no picture because that is the only meaning of belief, which is again, to believe in something that you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t or didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see,
can you see how flawed your arguments are?
phoenix1 wrote:
My problem with your argument (#4) is that you can't just assume that it's from God because no one today, or in WRITTEN history has taken credit for writing it.
excuse me, you are lying again, you said no one has taken credit to it, while the fact of the matter is, there is only one entity which claimed the credit for it, the entity is Allah,
see how flawed your arguments are?
phoenix1 wrote:
I'm not saying it's not from God,
That is another lie bro, you clearly believe that it is not from Allah, please don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t lie, remember Santa?
phoenix1 wrote:
I'm only saying that we cannot assume that based on the fact that no one has claimed to be it's author (even if someone did today, no one would believe him).
4 lies in a row bro, man, you are a professional, again there is one entity who claimed to be the Author of the Quran, it is written in it bro
phoenix1 wrote:
Another problem is that you are using circular logic.
LOL, that is a typical line by those who get cornered, man please drop what you have learnt on FM when you discuss matters on FI, I actually believe that using circular logic is the main problem of yours
For example you want to believe in the Unseen while at the same time you want to see it, and that is what I call circular logic
phoenix1 wrote:
You are saying that the no one could've written the Quran because it says it's very beautiful and even jinn found it amazing. Don't you see that?
no I didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t say that,
what I said that the no one could've written the Quran other than Allah because no one else claimed to have written that amazing book but Him
phoenix1 wrote:
It's like if I say I'm great because I say I'm great.
why not?
Mohammad Ali said he is the greatest and he was great
So if Mohammad Ali said it, why Allah can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t
We also accept that Mohammad Ali is the greatest
This is another case of circular logic at you end indeed
What you are missing is this, most authors say about their books that they are great, now can humans take this for granted?, or course not, and this also applies to the Quran, now the Quran proved to be the greatest Arabic book ever written for the last 1400 years and we still counting, you should not debate this fact because you know no Arabic so please stay out of it and just watch if any Arabic speaker wants to argue this fact about the Arabic Quran
Therefore yes many Arabic professionals proved that the Quran is the greatest book ever written in Arabic
phoenix1 wrote:
I don't need any proof of my greatness.
well, in the case of the Quran, IT MUST HAVE ALL THAT GREATINESS TO STAND ALL THESE YEARS AND WE ARE STILL COUNTING, also the greatness in it is required because it came bundled with a challenge for all humans to bring a book like it
phoenix1 wrote:
My word is proof enough. Would you really think that I'm great just because I say it?
well, you are mixing two issues in here, another flawed circular logic at your end, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not saying Allah is great because the Quran is great, in fact I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m saying the opposite, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m saying the Quran is great because Allah is great
see how flawed you are
phoenix1 wrote:
My point is, we cannot ASSUME that the WHOLE book is from God.
excuse me again, we are not assuming something that we made up, we only assuming what the book content says, therefore under your own statement we have to give it the benefit of the doubt that it is unless proven otherwise
for example that American pervert who claimed to be the murderer of that young American child ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Ramsay family????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, what the other humans did was that, we took him seriously until proven otherwise, hahahaha
see it is your own bloody logic
now we must take the quran as what it says until proven otherwise
phoenix1 wrote:
We can't. Not even the whole,
we can until proven otherwise
now you need to do the otherwise, hmmm, the Quran also talks about you , I will show you the verses later, this is actually another Quran proof that it is from Allah
phoenix1 wrote:
but every word should be scrutinized and put under criticism.
hahahahah, as if it was not the case for 1400 years, who are you trying to fool exactly Walid?, for 1400 years the words of the Quran have been scrutinized and put under criticism by many enemies of islam, and the sincere Muslims refuted all their non sense, re-scrutinized and criticism repeatedly over hundreds of years and yet the Quran stood against them all, but we don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t need confused Muslims to do the exact same without any bloody evidence provided other than wishful thinking, non sense, ignorance with the language or some flawed philosophical crap, it seems you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t realize what you are doing
if you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t claim to be a Muslim then there will be nothing strange in all what you say, however what you are doing is simply a case of confusion or a case of a clear cut lie
phoenix1 wrote:
Then not only will we know the truth, but we'll have a better understanding of the quran.
hahahaha, as if in 1400 years there is non who understands the Quran
come on man, you are living a dream in your Barbie world
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
Bro, why you are repeating your flawed arguments?, as I said if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful person there will be no need for me to include the word TRUE and yet say a lie, you just don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t make any sense bro, and as I said you have the right to doubt the try to investigate yourself if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m truthful or not, for the Quran which in existence for 1400 years, many doubt the same and many tried to find evidences to the stories in the Quran and of course over the years many stories have been confirmed
You aren't getting my point.
Everything we say has a message. We say things because we want to convey something.
Now, the message/moral/lesson in my story can be true or false.
I can tell you about the Vietnam war to teach you a false lesson.
I can tell you about a fake war to teach you a true lesson.
Or I can tell you about a real war to teach you a true lesson.
Do you understand?
So a story can be "made up" and still be true.
I'm repeating my argument because you fail to understand it.
And I'm sorry if I missed some of your questions, but I try to answer your posts without quoting every single sentence. Maybe I missed something or thought the question was rhetorical. Please repeat the question if you don't mind.
Quote:
That Allah sent messengers to a group of people and they didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t listen to it so they earned a punishment? That is the main lesson in all these prophets stories
Why Allah gave examples that never happened?, to scare us or what?
Because it's not important! it doesn't matter whether they happened 1000000s of years ago or not. What happened back then doesn't affect us in any way today.
Yes, they didn't obey the messengers and they earned a punishment (which is only one of the many lessons we can learn). And we can put ourselves in their place (this is where symbolism comes in) and say "If we don't obey the messenger (the truth basically), we will be punished."
These stories are there because they help us out TODAY, in our daily lives.
What I don't like is for people to spend their time looking to prove these stories (when they can't prove "miracles") and forget about why these stories are actually there. The Quran is a reminder, not a test.
Just tell me this, is there, or is there not, a deeper message/lesson to these stories? if yes, then we have no disagreement on this issue. I have no problem with you trying to prove whether these stories happened or not. I just don't think it's important.
Quote:
See that is your major flaw, because a God can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t say that He did or will so such and such and it never happen, it has to be a lie if it didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t happen or will not happen, however I believe a human can lie and do just that but God is not a human to do that, your flaw is simply the result that you are ignorant to what and how the God should be as many ignorant humans are, no conflict here neither I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m amazed with your silly and contradictory claims
But they do happen. All I'm saying is that maybe these stories didn't actually happen in the past, but they DO happen all around us all the time. We face the same problems that Adam did, don't we? are we not tempted by satan?
So maybe there wasn't an actual person called Adam. But maybe Adam=us. Maybe this is a true story but just not in the sense that you are thinking. Just because these stories never happened in history, doesn't make them false.
Quote:
Of course and that is what makes me a believer, see, when you say I believe it means you believe in something that you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t or didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see, and that is what we have been created for, TO BELIEVE, now you want to take this main and only requirement out of the picture, hence you will be left with no picture because that is the only meaning of belief, which is again, to believe in something that you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t or didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see,
I disagree with you here. Our purpose isn't to believe. It is to SERVE.
But how do we know whether we are serving the right cause or not????
We have to verify every piece of information to know if it's true or not. If it's true, we follow it. If not, we discard it.
We cannot just BELIEVE. We can't. That's stupid.
Quote:
excuse me, you are lying again, you said no one has taken credit to it, while the fact of the matter is, there is only one entity which claimed the credit for it, the entity is Allah,
I meant a person didn't take credit for it. I pointing out your argument. Please don't say I'm lying, because I'm not. If I make a mistake, or I misunderstand you, I'll admit it. But one thing I'm not doing, and I don't have to do, is lying.
Quote:
That is another lie bro, you clearly believe that it is not from Allah, please don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t lie, remember Santa?
I'm not sure about that stance (my position is complicated). I have certainly argued against the notion that the quran is the word of Allah, but that's not what we're arguing here. I'm not talking about that right now. It's not important to this debate. Maybe we can argue over that some other time, but I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not implying that in any of my posts here. My purpose is not to prove the quran isn't from God. Or to prove the quran wrong in any way. But just to show you that the quran needs to be examined like any other book, and that just because the stories are symbolic doesn't mean they are false.
Quote:
4 lies in a row bro, man, you are a professional, again there is one entity who claimed to be the Author of the Quran, it is written in it bro
Again, I was talking about a person claiming authorship of the quran.
Quote:
LOL, that is a typical line by those who get cornered, man please drop what you have learnt on FM when you discuss matters on FI, I actually believe that using circular logic is the main problem of yours
For example you want to believe in the Unseen while at the same time you want to see it, and that is what I call circular logic
You are saying that the Quran is true because it is from God. It is from God because it says it is from God. And it is telling the truth about that because the Quran is ture because it is from God. It is from God because it says it is from God. And it is telling the truth about that because the Quran is true because it is from God....
That is, whether you admit it or not, circular logic.
The "unseen" is not what happened 1234870579235 years ago and we must believe to be good people. The unseen is the deeper meaning of everything. It is what is beneath the surface of things. People who care about looks, and material things do not care about what these things actually are. They can only see these things and don't realize what is more important. They don't care to look beneath the surface.
The more important things in life are not physical (cannot be seen). They have to be realized and experienced.
Quote:
Mohammad Ali said he is the greatest and he was great
But you know he was great because you know what he did. Not because of what he said.
If satan says "im great" you won't believe him. That was my point, which again you missed. Maybe it's just me.
Quote:
What you are missing is this, most authors say about their books that they are great, now can humans take this for granted?, or course not, and this also applies to the Quran, now the Quran proved to be the greatest Arabic book ever written for the last 1400 years and we still counting, you should not debate this fact because you know no Arabic so please stay out of it and just watch if any Arabic speaker wants to argue this fact about the Arabic Quran
Therefore yes many Arabic professionals proved that the Quran is the greatest book ever written in Arabic
OK. This is where this debate ends (and now maybe we can discuss some of the symbolism). I have read the rest of the post by the way.
The thing is, I don't believe the quran has been proven to be the greatest book. Simply because I don't think we have a good enough understanding of it. And also because of the influence of hadith, the message has been corrupted. I believe that we have a good understanding of this book when we can personally verify every one of it's claims, and if it contains no contradictions to the scientific method. That is what I believe.
Now because you believe that we already have a perfect understanding of the quran (or at least you do) and it has already been proven to you, then there's no point in arguing.
If I knew more arabic at this point in time, I might've discussed linguistics and understandings with you, but this is as far as I can go.
Quote:
hahahaha, as if in 1400 years there is non who understands the Quran
there is no one who understands the quran? I don't know what you're saying there.
Now, getting to what I wanted to discuss, answer me this:
don't we, in our daily lives, go through the same troubles as Adam did?
Posted:
Wed 15 Nov, 2006 3:28 pm
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Also, I didn't want this to be a one-on-one. If other people want to express their views, offer their opinions, then please do so. The more people we have discussing something the better.
Posted:
Wed 15 Nov, 2006 3:32 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
nor me really, please all, particpate if you have anything to say
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
You aren't getting my point.
Of course I'm getting it, simply you are mixing two different issues, the first is the guidance learnt in the Quran and the second is the history of mankind mentioned in the Quran, please do not mix apple with mangos as you always do
phoenix1 wrote:
Everything we say has a message. We say things because we want to convey something.
again, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t bloody mix apple with mangos, the lessons learnt has nothing to do with a story been real or not, they are two different issues, it is you who pushing hard to explicitly make the message as only metaphor while ignoring all the historical facts mentioned and proved in the Quran,
phoenix1 wrote:
Now, the message/moral/lesson in my story can be true or false.
bro I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t care about your story as a story teller nor any other human story teller for that matter, I only care if the story teller is Allah
phoenix1 wrote:
I can tell you about the Vietnam war to teach you a false lesson.
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry, I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t want to hear it, if you want me to hear somethin then discuss the stories in the Quran
phoenix1 wrote:
I can tell you about a fake war to teach you a true lesson.
again I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t give a fluke about your fake war,
phoenix1 wrote:
Or I can tell you about a real war to teach you a true lesson.
hmmm, what lessons exactly?, that wars are bad?
phoenix1 wrote:
Do you understand?
no I donl????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t understand your wars but I do understand the Arabic Quran.
phoenix1 wrote:
So a story can be "made up" and still be true.
well at least you expect the story teller to tell you if the story is made up or true, and ion the case of the Quran the story teller that all stories in the Quran are true
phoenix1 wrote:
I'm repeating my argument because you fail to understand it.
well, donlt repeat it then and let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s agree to disagree, because I see your argument as flawed and very tom and jerry one, try your argument on FM there are many there who like to watch tom and jerry
phoenix1 wrote:
And I'm sorry if I missed some of your questions, but I try to answer your posts without quoting every single sentence.
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry, this is how it should be done in a debate, we are not having a chat, aren????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t we?
phoenix1 wrote:
Maybe I missed something or thought the question was rhetorical. Please repeat the question if you don't mind.
well, here one question you missed
do you believe that Jesus was born without a father?
phoenix1 wrote:
Because it's not important! it doesn't matter whether they happened 1000000s of years ago or not.
that is in your deluded Barbie world, the stories must be real because through it we know how Allag reacts to His humans affairs and in all these stories Allah told us that He did things, i.e. for someone like ya it is not important to know how God works, for you it is only a metaphor in your Barbie world and god maybe a liar about all these stories, in fact for ya the Quran maybe a lie as well i.e. the Author of the Quran does not exist
phoenix1 wrote:
What happened back then doesn't affect us in any way today.
excuse me, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not discussing the lessons now, I asked you to list for me all the lessons in these stories and you declined so knock off please, what I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m only discussing with ya now that these stories are real or not, you say they are not without providing any evidence other than your wishful thinking and your matrix, I said they are true and provided evidences from the Quran, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you understand that I only accept evidences from the Quran? If you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t then let me say one more time, I only accept evidences from the Quran if you want to debate the Quran, other than this bro, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not really interested
now please show me your evidences that Allah said these stories never happened, thank you
phoenix1 wrote:
Yes, they didn't obey the messengers and they earned a punishment (which is only one of the many lessons we can learn).
well, why Allah tell us a an unreal story then?, why He said to Mohammad that some of the prophets He sent are mentioned to him in the Quran and some are not, why you dodged that verse that exposes your ignorance about the reality of these stories?
If the reality of these stories are not important and only the lessons are for ya, why you are going around ranting that these stories can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be taken for real?, you are really confused man
Is believing in these stories as real is considered blasphemy?
Or
Is NOT believing in these stories as real is considered blasphemy?
Can you please answer the above questions and don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t dodge it as you always do
phoenix1 wrote:
And we can put ourselves in their place (this is where symbolism comes in) and say "If we don't obey the messenger (the truth basically), we will be punished."
excuse me which messenger to obey exactly?
Can you prove to me that Mohammad existed? Thank you
Please don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t dodge that one too
phoenix1 wrote:
These stories are there because they help us out TODAY, in our daily lives.
help us in what exactly?, how Noah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s flood will help us can you explain to me?
Well possibly the many floods that happen now for real are exactly the same of what happened to Noah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s people for real?, remember the last big tsunami
phoenix1 wrote:
What I don't like is for people to spend their time looking to prove these stories (when they can't prove "miracles") and forget about why these stories are actually there. The Quran is a reminder, not a test.
a reminder to follow a non existent prophet?
What bloody sense is that man?
Ok now the onus is on you to explain to us how you managed to prove the Mohammad lived for real so you are learning how to follow him now, cheers
phoenix1 wrote:
Just tell me this, is there, or is there not, a deeper message/lesson to these stories?
there is only one deeper message in these stories really, and it is, Allah will punish the wrong doers for real, and no one can stop Him nor save them.
phoenix1 wrote:
if yes, then we have no disagreement on this issue.
Excuse me we will only have no disagreement if you agree that the only deeper message in these stories is: Allah will punish the wrong doers for real, and no one can stop Him nor save them.
If you agree on that then we have no disagreement
Now for you to make a bit of sense you MUST ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????if you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t mind????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? explain to me how you want to follow Mohammad while you have not proved yet that he existed?
phoenix1 wrote:
I have no problem with you trying to prove whether these stories happened or not.
excuse me bro, the above statement is flowed, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m only trying to prove that theyb are happened, it is you that you are trying to porve that they did not happen,
now I do have a problem with you trying to prove that the stories never happened, while on the other hand you claim that that their reality is not important, for me though their reality is a must for the whole Quran to make any sense
phoenix1 wrote:
I just don't think it's important.
why you are ranting about it then, just live and let live bro
if it is important issue to you then sure you have every right to rant about it
phoenix1 wrote:
But they do happen. All I'm saying is that maybe these stories didn't actually happen in the past,
this means the story teller who is God is a liar
what a gruesome lie you are promoting man
phoenix1 wrote:
but they DO happen all around us all the time.
Like the real Tsunamis and the real Noah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s flood?
phoenix1 wrote:
We face the same problems that Adam did, don't we?
no we don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t, did God told us to not to eat from a specific tree?, that is the only problem Adam faced as much as I believe
but before you talk about Adam, do you believe that we all came from him and Allah created him with His own Hands?
Please don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t dodge that one too
phoenix1 wrote:
are we not tempted by satan?
Bro, that is a totally different issue however if I accept your argument that when Adam was tempted to eat from the tree is like we all tempted to commit all the crimes we are aware of, would that mean Adam was a true person for you? And if so then we have no disagreement in here, however to I have stave to state that the Quran told us that the story of Adam is for real, do you believe in that Walid?
phoenix1 wrote:
So maybe there wasn't an actual person called Adam. But maybe Adam=us. Maybe this is a true story but just not in the sense that you are thinking. Just because these stories never happened in history, doesn't make them false.
what sense is that man, again Allah is the one who is saying the story, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t bloody apply your flawed human logic on Allah, what you said only applies to the human story tellers, NOT ON ALLAH, obviously your ignorance with the God is clear as light
phoenix1 wrote:
I disagree with you here. Our purpose isn't to believe. It is to SERVE.
nice try
Believing in God must be to serve Him
Now how do you serve Him bro?, do you pray?, do you convey His message to other people?, do you pay Zakat?, did you fast last Ramadan?, are you planning to do Hajj to Mecca?
Please don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t dodge all these questions
phoenix1 wrote:
But how do we know whether we are serving the right cause or not????
hmmm, I know, but do you?
phoenix1 wrote:
We have to verify every piece of information to know if it's true or not. If it's true, we follow it. If not, we discard it.
can you please tell me what you have verified so far?
Please don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t dodge this one
phoenix1 wrote:
We cannot just BELIEVE. We can't. That's stupid.
Hmmm, talk about yourself please, I just believed period. You can consider me dumb
phoenix1 wrote:
I meant a person didn't take credit for it. I pointing out your argument. Please don't say I'm lying, because I'm not. If I make a mistake, or I misunderstand you, I'll admit it. But one thing I'm not doing, and I don't have to do, is lying.
well bro, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t get offended, if you see me saying lies deliberate or not please expose it, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not saying you did it with malice, but the Quran said clearly about those ignorant who speak against Allah what they don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t know that they are liars, so I used the expression in the Quran because what you do is only saying thinks against Allah while you admitted that you lack the knowledge, I will show you that verse later
phoenix1 wrote:
I'm not sure about that stance (my position is complicated).
well, if it is complicated then it has nothing to so with Islam because Allah made His religion simple
phoenix1 wrote:
I have certainly argued against the notion that the quran is the word of Allah,
you did indeed and without any knowledge whatsoever or even a reasonable period spent to study that amazing book
phoenix1 wrote:
but that's not what we're arguing here. I'm not talking about that right now. It's not important to this debate.
well, it is important because when I debate someone I have to fully understand their stance against the Quran, I only debate the scriptures bro, so I need to know how those debating me are considering it
phoenix1 wrote:
Maybe we can argue over that some other time,
there iis only one way to argue this bro, you need to show us a mistake in the Quran, other than this I won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t accept or argue your maytrix thoughts, you are free to think the way you wish regarding all aspects of life except the Arabic Quran because any share that book together, and the logic is that all believers in that book must come to a common understanding not each individual understanding, and the best way to achieve that is to stick to the literal Quran.
phoenix1 wrote:
but I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not implying that in any of my posts here. My purpose is not to prove the quran isn't from God. Or to prove the quran wrong in any way. But just to show you that the quran needs to be examined like any other book, and that just because the stories are symbolic doesn't mean they are false.
did you examine it?
now please understand it that you are talking to some one who is examining it for the last 25 years or even more than that by now, dontl you understand that or what bro? or do you think I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m one of those young guns in their twenties who all of a sudden think that they can comprehend the Quran ?
phoenix1 wrote:
Again, I was talking about a person claiming authorship of the quran.
No person calimed as such, it was only Allah who claimed as such
phoenix1 wrote:
You are saying that the Quran is true because it is from God. It is from God because it says it is from God. And it is telling the truth about that because the Quran is ture because it is from God. It is from God because it says it is from God. And it is telling the truth about that because the Quran is true because it is from God....That is, whether you admit it or not, circular logic.
No I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not saying that as my main argument against you, what I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m saying is simply no human claimed to be the author of that book and logically speaking no human will do that with any great book if they are the true author of it
phoenix1 wrote:
The "unseen" is not what happened 1234870579235 years ago and we must believe to be good people. The unseen is the deeper meaning of everything.
The matrix again bro?,
So what is the your deeper meaning for the unseen?
phoenix1 wrote:
It is what is beneath the surface of things. People who care about looks, and material things do not care about what these things actually are. They can only see these things and don't realize what is more important. They don't care to look beneath the surface.
sounds like the matrix for me
phoenix1 wrote:
The more important things in life are not physical (cannot be seen). They have to be realized and experienced.
That has to be a quote from the matrix
Can you please provide a verse from the Quran to support your statement?, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not saying it is wrong but as I said I only take the Quran as the only source of guidance, so if the above statement by you is sort of a guidance, please show me the verse stating it
phoenix1 wrote:
But you know he was great because you know what he did. Not because of what he said.
didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t Allah create you?
If so then Allah is the greatest not bloody Mohammad Ali, I can say the Ali is not so great now
phoenix1 wrote:
If satan says "im great" you won't believe him. That was my point, which again you missed. Maybe it's just me.
Yeh I think it is you, but Satan never said he is great, he said that he is better than Adam, but he didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t say it to me neither you nor any other human for that matter, he only said it to Allah, so I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not sure if he is saying to all humans after that incident as part of his deception plan
phoenix1 wrote:
OK. This is where this debate ends (and now maybe we can discuss some of the symbolism). I have read the rest of the post by the way.
finally bro, cheers for that
phoenix1 wrote:
The thing is, I don't believe the quran has been proven to be the greatest book.
of course because you know nothing about Arabic.
phoenix1 wrote:
Simply because I don't think we have a good enough understanding of it.
can you please speak for yourself, I myself state that I have good understanding to the Arabic Quran Al Hamdulellah
phoenix1 wrote:
And also because of the influence of hadith,
can you please speak for yourself, because I was never influenced by any hadith
phoenix1 wrote:
the message has been corrupted.
The message is not corrupted, it is preserved in the Quran, but if you mean the hadith is corrupted then I agree with you, however the hadith is not part of the message the hadith only for practising the religion
phoenix1 wrote:
there is no one who understands the quran? I don't know what you're saying there.
of course there are millions who understand the Quran very well, I don't know what you're saying there
phoenix1 wrote:
Now, getting to what I wanted to discuss, answer me this:
don't we, in our daily lives, go through the same troubles as Adam did?
hmmm, I thought the debate has ended, now how about I dodge a question from you in response to the tens of questions you dodged, at least I told ya that I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m going to dodge it
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Hello All
Let's end this debate with these verses that I told Walid they are talking about him:
8: Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah, without Knowledge, without Guidance, and without a Book of Enlightenment,-
9: (Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the Path of Allah: for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgment We shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire).
10: (It will be said): This is because of the deeds which thy hands sent forth, for verily Allah is not unjust to His servants. [The Quran ; 22:8-10]
-> See, if we take Walid as an example, we can clearly see the following:
-> Walid is disputing matters about Allah :"Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah", Walid also admitted that he lacks knowledge :"without Knowledge", Walid also does not use the Quran or the Bible to support his arguments against Allah :"without Guidance, and without a Book of Enlightenment,"
-> This (indirectly or directly) will cause the following :"Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the Path of Allah", the problem for Walid is this :"for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgment We shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire)."
-> That is why I feel for him indeed :"(It will be said): This is because of the deeds which thy hands sent forth, for verily Allah is not unjust to His servants.", there is no doubt that someone who claims as Walid claims can't be a servant of Allah
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Let me say this before I go to bed
I thank Walid for this debate, and I'm sorry to him if my style is a bit harsh, this is how I have been all my life and I'm not willing to change
I do treat people in a straight forward manner and I fear not telling them the truth, at the end of the day I will pray for him in tonight Isha that he will be guided to Allah path as He guided and continue to guide many.
Ahmed & Phonix can post one last closing comments, thereafter this debate gets locked.
Posted:
Thu 16 Nov, 2006 7:44 am
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 31
Post subject:
Life, I don't want this thread locked. Even if the discussion stops right now, we can come back to it later. There's no reason for you to lock it. Please don't.
Ahmed,
Quote:
Of course I'm getting it, simply you are mixing two different issues, the first is the guidance learnt in the Quran and the second is the history of mankind mentioned in the Quran, please do not mix apple with mangos as you always do
I'm not mixing anything. For some reason you've decided that and don't wnat to consider the alternative.
Quote:
again, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t bloody mix apple with mangos, the lessons learnt has nothing to do with a story been real or not, they are two different issues, it is you who pushing hard to explicitly make the message as only metaphor while ignoring all the historical facts mentioned and proved in the Quran,
What historical facts?
The Quran only uses stories from ancient Egyptians and the Christians/jewish scriptures. THey are allegories passed down from generation to generation. The Quran doesn't say that, but that's the conclusion we have to come to based on evidence.
Quote:
bro I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t care about your story as a story teller nor any other human story teller for that matter, I only care if the story teller is Allah
Do you know what an example is? I gave you an example. I'm not asking you to believe some story of mine. I was giving you an example.
A story that physically happened can be used to tell a LIE.
A story that didn't physically happen can be used to tell the truth.
That's a fact. If you don't understand me, please ask for clarifications, don't accuse me of lying or making up stories in my barbie world.
Quote:
do you believe that Jesus was born without a father?
Very Good question.
I don't believe Jesus could've been born without a father because universal law (which dictates EVERYTHING that happens) states that a person cannot be born without a father.
Just like he couldn't have literally healed the dead and the blind. Just like Moses couldn't have split a sea in half literally.
Quote:
excuse me, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not discussing the lessons now, I asked you to list for me all the lessons in these stories and you declined so knock off please, what I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m only discussing with ya now that these stories are real or not, you say they are not without providing any evidence other than your wishful thinking and your matrix, I said they are true and provided evidences from the Quran, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you understand that I only accept evidences from the Quran? If you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t then let me say one more time, I only accept evidences from the Quran if you want to debate the Quran, other than this bro, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not really interested
The Quran is useless unless our minds are grounded in reality.
If we need to prove the Quran, we need to prove it by setting it against universal law and established facts. Using it's verses to prove itself is circular logic. If the Quran says that these stories actually happened, then where is the evidence? where are the signs?
Because there is no evidence, we have to step back and think that maybe that's not what the Quran is saying. Maybe it's saying something different. That's when we discuss the verses.
Right now, you are either failing to see that there is no evidence, or accept the stories as historically accurate without any evidence because you need to believe. Unless you realize that there is no reason for you to believe what you believe, then we can't get to the next step and decide what the quran is actually saying.
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now please show me your evidences that Allah said these stories never happened, thank you
Doesn't the Quran tell us that it confirms what was sent before us? well, it is a hint to the same stories that have been used in the past.
Quote:
well, why Allah tell us a an unreal story then?, why He said to Mohammad that some of the prophets He sent are mentioned to him in the Quran and some are not, why you dodged that verse that exposes your ignorance about the reality of these stories?
What does that have to do with what I'm saying?
Quote:
If the reality of these stories are not important and only the lessons are for ya, why you are going around ranting that these stories can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be taken for real?, you are really confused man
I said that they can't be taken for real (at least not right now) because we have no way to verify them. There is no evidence we can look at.
So we need to leave that part alone.
But you can't leave that part alone because to you, those stories are there just to be believed in. You believe that if you accept these stories as historical facts, you'll be granted a ticket into this place called paradise. Well, what I'm saying is that your focus is on the wrong thing.
The quran is for a people who THINK. You are not thinking. You aren't analysing and studying. You are only believing. That's not what the Quran is asking.
I've always said that although I don't think that I can accept these stories as historical facts right now, I don't believe that is important. What is important is the symbolic message. But for some reason you refuse to see that, because you think "symbol" is some kind of a curse. It's not. It's like you are afraid of that idea and that word. Why? Is God not smart enough to use symbols to explain his message better? I dont' get what your problem is. Maybe you need to look up the meaning of the word "symbol" and "metaphor."
I never said that these stories can't be symbolic and be real. In fact I said they can be. The argument we are having right now is not what I intended. I intended to discuss the possible symbolism.
Quote:
s believing in these stories as real is considered blasphemy?
Or
Is NOT believing in these stories as real is considered blasphemy?
NOT believing in them is a blasphemy. But it's not believing that they actually happened (because that DOES NOT HELP US in any way), but believing in their message and the lesson they teach us.
We weren't created to believe some book to be historically accurate (when common sense clearly says it isn't). The Quran is meant FOR US so that we can serve God in a better way. It is advise.
I'd use examples to explain this to you, but you clearly don't understand examples or metaphors, so I won't. But please try to understand what I'm trying to say instead of accusing me of lying and telling me I'm living in a barbie world. I've been trying to better understand your views, but I feel you aren't doing the same.
Quote:
excuse me which messenger to obey exactly?
Can you prove to me that Mohammad existed? Thank you
Obey all the messengers.
messenger=person who carries the truth (the truth is always from God).
A messenger can be anyone.
There are historical accounts of a man named Muhammad who conquered Arabia and supposedly performed miracles, but that doesn't mean that it was the same Muhammad the quran is talking about. Seeing how the hadith and other arabian historical accounts have distorted the quran, I don't trust history that much. It's not important to me whether Muhammad existed or not. But yes, we can never prove his existence. We can only guess.
But we don't have to follow Muhammad. We can follow any message/messenger.The TRUTH is always the same. Unlike falsehood, the truth never changes. So following the messenger means we should be following the truth, that's all. Again, I would give you a metaphor/example to explain my point, but you refuse to understand them.
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help us in what exactly?, how Noah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s flood will help us can you explain to me?
Well possibly the many floods that happen now for real are exactly the same of what happened to Noah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s people for real?, remember the last big tsunami
The last big tsunami had nothing in common with Noah's flood. What are you talking about?
But I don't know what you should learn from it. Maybe you should think like the quran tells you to. Maybe you should ponder over it's verses instead of just "believing them" and maybe you'll get something more out of it.
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Ok now the onus is on you to explain to us how you managed to prove the Mohammad lived for real so you are learning how to follow him now, cheers
I've already explained that, I think.
Quote:
there is only one deeper message in these stories really, and it is, Allah will punish the wrong doers for real, and no one can stop Him nor save them.
That's what you think because you fail to understand the use of metaphors, examples, symbols to explain someone's point/message. Unless the Quran says it in black and white, you don't understand it. Why do you fail to look into it a bit deeper?
Quote:
excuse me bro, the above statement is flowed, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m only trying to prove that theyb are happened, it is you that you are trying to porve that they did not happen,
now I do have a problem with you trying to prove that the stories never happened, while on the other hand you claim that that their reality is not important, for me though their reality is a must for the whole Quran to make any sense
You never tried to prove to me that these stories actually happened. You have been trying to prove to me that the Quran says that these stories actually happened. There is a difference.
If you provide me with evidence, then I have no problem. Arnold Yasin has been trying to prove the same thing and it's fine by me (he's had to include miracles in there which I don't agree with). But he also recognizes that these stories are examples used to explain the message in a clearer way. You fail to do that.
Proving that these stories never happened (at least in the way you look at it) is very simple for me. I can point out to you that I have never seen a stick turn into a snake. I have never seen invisible beings, I have never seen angels, I have never seen a man talk to ants. Not only have I not seen these things, I have not seen any sign or evidence of them either.
And I can say for sure that you havn't either. And no one else who was ever born on earth has ever seen such a thing.
So if you want others to believe that the quran is a great book, then you have to prove me wrong. You havn't even tried doing that.
You have just said that the Quran says this, and we must believe this because the Quran is from God, and the Quran is from God because no one else has taken credit for it. That's not a good enough argument.
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if it is important issue to you then sure you have every right to rant about it
It is not an important issue, and I have been trying to show you that. You believe it is very important. I'm trying to show you that it's not.
Quote:
what a gruesome lie you are promoting man
I am not lying, and neither am I saying that God is a liar.
I would give you another example, but you can't understand those, so I will keep it to myself.
I will reply with more later...peace.
Posted:
Thu 16 Nov, 2006 1:27 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Yes, please Life, leave the thread unlocked
i will read your comment later Walid, i'm just about to have a nap, i'm very tired
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 31
Post subject:
sorry this is a little late...
Quote:
Like the real Tsunamis and the real Noah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s flood?
No. They happen for real. But in a non physical way. Noah is a symbol for all the people in his situation. He was telling the truth but no one wanted to listen to him. So when we are in that situation, we try to understand what happened in his story, put it in our terms, and do what he did. And many people are in such a situation. Even you have been in that kind of a situation, maybe with your family. In the end, you need to realize that the quran does have the ability to affect your life right here right now.
Quote:
no we don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t, did God told us to not to eat from a specific tree?, that is the only problem Adam faced as much as I believe
but before you talk about Adam, do you believe that we all came from him and Allah created him with His own Hands?
Not a specific tree. But there are things forbidden to us, right? tree=forbidden. Adam=us. So satan will try to tempt us to do the things that are forbidden, but we have a choice (just as Adam did) to either listen to God or listen to Satan. Adam's story helps us make the right choice.
God created Adam. But we do not come from him in the sense that he married eve and they had children and that's how our population grew. Looking at it that way makes it illogical. See, I'm not saying the stories themselves are illogical, but the way you are looking at them is. If logic isn't important to you, that's a different story. But you have to admit that logically, and scientifically, your version of these stories holds no water.
Quote:
Bro, that is a totally different issue however if I accept your argument that when Adam was tempted to eat from the tree is like we all tempted to commit all the crimes we are aware of, would that mean Adam was a true person for you? And if so then we have no disagreement in here, however to I have stave to state that the Quran told us that the story of Adam is for real, do you believe in that Walid?
It is not a totally different issue. That's what you think because you are have symbolismphobia. Adam was/is real. His story is real. But just not in the way you think. You think that if we can't see, touch something, it's not real, well other things can be real too. Adam's story happens all the time.
You just have this blind belief in these characters and you just can't let go. That's why you fail to see what I'm showing you.
Quote:
what sense is that man, again Allah is the one who is saying the story, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t bloody apply your flawed human logic on Allah, what you said only applies to the human story tellers, NOT ON ALLAH, obviously your ignorance with the God is clear as light
Tell me I'm not knowledgable enough, but don't say that my logic is flawed. God gave me the ability to think rationally so I can seperate truth from falsehood. Without our human logic (which you conviently call flawed) is given to us by Allah. Are you calling his creation flawed? when he says that he perfected us?
Why doesn't it apply to God? your argument against me has been that God isn't like our grannies. Well, explain to me why. Why can't God, or more importantly his messenger, use symbolism and metaphors to explain God's message? (God's message is explained in parables)
Quote:
Believing in God must be to serve Him
Now how do you serve Him bro?, do you pray?, do you convey His message to other people?, do you pay Zakat?, did you fast last Ramadan?, are you planning to do Hajj to Mecca?
There is a world of difference between just "believing" and "serving." Believing means you just believe. You can believe that you are hungry and you can believe that there is a basket of fruit in front of you. Or you can actually do something about it (which would be to get up and eat the fruit). Well, serving God is doing something with our belief. We believe in God, so we should model ourselves after him. We serve God by bringing his divine qualities down to earth.
Serving is not praying or performing rituals. Rituals don't do anything. They don't change anything. Unless they work like magic.
There is one very important law that most people forget about: we get what we deserve. God doesn't change his will just because someone asks him to. There are trillions of beings on earth, God wouldn't disrupt his laws for just one tiny human.
It is up to us to bring about change. To improve ourselves and get closer to God.
Salat is not for God, it is for us. TO help us serve him.
Zakat is not something we pay, it is something we accomplish by doing good deeds (like charity) and through salat.
I do fast, but I'm not sure exactly what ramadan is or what the purpose of fasting is. But, again, it is FOR US. It is so that we live better lives.
The Quran is not a test. Islam is not a test. Life is not a test. We don't have to pass anything.
But we have a choice, either to waste ourselves and live terrible lives, or make ourselves useful and live good, happy, peaceful lives.
The Quran helps us live a better life.
[/quote]can you please tell me what you have verified so far?
Quote:
I have verified a lot. Not only from the quran, but a lot of information.
The quran teaches me to control my emotions and stay at peace, and I have tried doing that and it helps me. I can make better decisions when I am calm. The quran tells me that the majority always believe in conjecture, and so far I have found that to be right. The point is, no matter what quran we read, we must make sure that what it says is true.
Hmmm, talk about yourself please, I just believed period. You can consider me dumb
[quote]
I wouldn't consider you dumb. I would consider you to be rejecting the truth knowingly because you believe what you want to believe, and not what you know is true.
Quote:
well, if it is complicated then it has nothing to so with Islam because Allah made His religion simple
islam is simple, very simple (it's you who are making it complicated by bringing in supernatural events and miracles and invisible beings and 5 times a day rituals and pilgrimages...).
But we, and our lives, are very complicated. We all have doubt (we should), but from doubt comes certainty. I have doubts, but I'm sure I'm on the right track. Because I'm using my god given tools to seperate truth from falsehood.
Quote:
you did indeed and without any knowledge whatsoever or even a reasonable period spent to study that amazing book
I admit (and I've never denied this) that my knowledge of this book is limited. I have to rely on other's translations to come to conclusions. But in the end, I only follow what I have verified. So it must be true. So regardless of what the quran actually says, I'm believing in truth.
And you don't need to spend years studying the quran to question it's "divinity". Seriously.
Quote:
there iis only one way to argue this bro, you need to show us a mistake in the Quran, other than this I won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t accept or argue your maytrix thoughts, you are free to think the way you wish regarding all aspects of life except the Arabic Quran because any share that book together, and the logic is that all believers in that book must come to a common understanding not each individual understanding, and the best way to achieve that is to stick to the literal Quran.
Why stick to the literal Quran? I don't get this. When the quran says again and again that God explains his message through parables (and gives us a n example of a short parable in some of the verses), why should we take the quran literally?
I understand what you are saying. The Quran only means one thing. But there is no way we can know what that original thing was exactly. We can come close. And if everyone VERIFIES what they believe, they will end up with the same understanding. A good example is Idolfree, Arnoldyasin, and Ayman (and some other members). If you read their posts, they all take different angles, but reach the same conclusions. And none of them take the quran as literally as you do. How is that possible? Well, I'm not saying we should just believe them, but they must be some truth in what they are saying when others reach the same place using different paths.
(i'm not saying they're right, just using them as an example).
We are all individuals, and we do things differently. And it doesn't matter if we choose a slightly different way of serving the god as long as it is within the confines of his laws.
And there certainly are people who take the quran literally and still disagree with what it says. The quran doesn't contain any doubt. It's just a book. Just words. It's our human mind, it's our biases, our egos and our desires, that create the confusion and the doubt. You can't get away from that no matter how literally you take something.
It's time for you to step out of your shell and explore some of the symbolism in the quran. You are too afraid of examples and metaphors for some reason. Even when I use them. It's not a bad thing.
Quote:
now please understand it that you are talking to some one who is examining it for the last 25 years or even more than that by now, dontl you understand that or what bro? or do you think I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m one of those young guns in their twenties who all of a sudden think that they can comprehend the Quran ?
Well, it's usually the children who take everything literally just joking
I understand you have spent a lot of time studying the quran. But have you really looked at from all possible angles?
And just because someone spends a lot of time on something, doesn't mean they are good at it. As they say, don't try harder, try smarter. I could use another example here...
Posted:
Sat 18 Nov, 2006 4:49 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
sorry this is a little late...
No worries
Quote:
Like the real Tsunamis and the real Noah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s flood?
phoenix1 wrote:
No. They happen for real.
so Noah flood didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t happen for real, hmmm, ok, that is your decision to make
phoenix1 wrote:
But in a non physical way. Noah is a symbol for all the people in his situation.
hahahaha, thanks for the laugh
phoenix1 wrote:
He was telling the truth but no one wanted to listen to him.
a non exitance was telling the truth to non existence, hahahahahaha tha ks for the laugh Walid, I reckon we should create a humour forum and you moderate it
phoenix1 wrote:
So when we are in that situation,
what situation exactly?, is there any messenger advising you now on what to do?
phoenix1 wrote:
we try to understand what happened in his story,
please make me understand and tell me all the lessons learnt from no ah story
phoenix1 wrote:
put it in our terms, and do what he did.
why donlt you bloody give me an example in how you did this with yourself?
phoenix1 wrote:
And many people are in such a situation.
not me
phoenix1 wrote:
Even you have been in that kind of a situation,
in your barbie world, yes but in my real world, no
phoenix1 wrote:
maybe with your family.
I have to confirm with them before I get back to you
phoenix1 wrote:
In the end, you need to realize that the quran does have the ability to affect your life right here right now.
hahahahahahahaha, the Quran says the opposite to what you say, I guess you have another Quran from the matrix world?
phoenix1 wrote:
Not a specific tree. But there are things forbidden to us, right?
hmmm, and who forbade those things?
phoenix1 wrote:
tree=forbidden. Adam=us.
hahahahah, I told you we need a humour forum, or possibly a forum called the Non Sense, how about that and you moderate it?
phoenix1 wrote:
So satan will try to tempt us to do the things that are forbidden,
and who is satan exactly?
phoenix1 wrote:
but we have a choice (just as Adam did) to either listen to God or listen to Satan.
where did you get these info from please?
phoenix1 wrote:
Adam's story helps us make the right choice.
oh yeh it helped all the bloody generations since Adam existed, who are you bloody kiddin man?
phoenix1 wrote:
God created Adam.
really, how can you prove that?
phoenix1 wrote:
But we do not come from him in the sense that he married eve and they had children and that's how our population grew.
ok, so we came from a non existence parents, right? Possibly they existed in your matrix world?
phoenix1 wrote:
Looking at it that way makes it illogical. See, I'm not saying the stories themselves are illogical, but the way you are looking at them is.
mixing apple with mangos again, bro you need to see a doctor
bloody oath learning something from the story are a totally different issue to being real or not, you nare such so confused man, this is ridiculous indeed
phoenix1 wrote:
If logic isn't important to you, that's a different story.
sorry, logic is not important to me?, holy crap bro, of course logic is the most important thing to me
phoenix1 wrote:
But you have to admit that logically, and scientifically, your version of these stories holds no water.
what version exactly?, it is not my version, it is Allah version you confused, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry bro, we ended the debate and you came back repeating all your non sense , come on man move on to another subject
phoenix1 wrote:
It is not a totally different issue.
so learning from the stories a lesson is the same issue as the stories being real or not, I told you you are just full of non sense bro
phoenix1 wrote:
That's what you think because you are have symbolismphobia.
hahahaha, that was funny mate
phoenix1 wrote:
Adam was/is real. His story is real. But just not in the way you think.
yeh it is in the way you think,
I never said in the way I think mister confused, I stated the stories as Allah said it as well he never said that stories are not for real, in fact He said that the stories are real and you disbelieved that hence you are a kafir
phoenix1 wrote:
You think that if we can't see, touch something, it's not real,
I never said that, it is you who actually saying that not me, you are so confused man
See, because you didnlt see the stories of the prophet happening you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t believe it that they happen for real there fore your statement fits like a glove on you, here it is again, you describing yourself:
????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? You think that if we can't see, touch something, it's not real????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
hahahahaha, that was really funny that you accuse others with what you suffer from
phoenix1 wrote:
well other things can be real too.
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not discussing other things, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m only dicussing the stories in the Quran,
phoenix1 wrote:
Adam's story happens all the time.
in you barbie or matrix world, yes
phoenix1 wrote:
You just have this blind belief in these characters and you just can't let go.
hmmm, of course I have to blondly believe Allah, at least I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not bliondly believing satan as you, hahahahahahaha
phoenix1 wrote:
That's why you fail to see what I'm showing you.
that is why if you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t repent you will head to Helll on the JD
phoenix1 wrote:
Tell me I'm not knowledgable enough, but don't say that my logic is flawed.
Indeed you suffer from both disotders
phoenix1 wrote:
God gave me the ability to think rationally so I can seperate truth from falsehood.
hahahahah, firstly you need to explain to me who is your god and what evidences you have for his exiatnce?
phoenix1 wrote:
Without our human logic (which you conviently call flawed) is given to us by Allah. Are you calling his creation flawed? when he says that he perfected us?
Allah never said that He perfected us, can yu show me the verse?
phoenix1 wrote:
Why doesn't it apply to God?
what does not apply to God?
phoenix1 wrote:
your argument against me has been that God isn't like our grannies.
of course
phoenix1 wrote:
Well, explain to me why. Why can't God, or more importantly his messenger, use symbolism and metaphors to explain God's message? (God's message is explained in parables)
They both did use it in the Quran and the hadith, are you blind or what
phoenix1 wrote:
There is a world of difference between just "believing" and "serving." Believing means you just believe. You can believe that you are hungry and you can believe that there is a basket of fruit in front of you.
mate, believing is serving, please leave your matrix BS away when you debate me, I only want evidences from the Quran man, I donlt want to get involved in Kyle style bull shit please, thanks
phoenix1 wrote:
Or you can actually do something about it (which would be to get up and eat the fruit).
irrelevant man, what loads of BS is that, how you teach y0our young child this non sense?, you will end up confusing the hell of them indeed
phoenix1 wrote:
Well, serving God is doing something with our belief. We believe in God, so we should model ourselves after him.
tell me what did you do then to serve God? But you need first to explain to me who is your God?
phoenix1 wrote:
We serve God by bringing his divine qualities down to earth.
hahahahah a typical Kyle style BS
phoenix1 wrote:
Serving is not praying or performing rituals.
I didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t say that, however praying is part of serving Allah on the other hand He does not need our service, it is just a test, nothing more and nothing less
phoenix1 wrote:
Rituals don't do anything.
for Kafirs, yes I agree, but for believers it does a whle heap of things to the believer
phoenix1 wrote:
They don't change anything. Unless they work like magic.
they did with me and many, but yes with kafirs they don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t do anything
phoenix1 wrote:
There is one very important law that most people forget about: we get what we deserve. God doesn't change his will just because someone asks him to. There are trillions of beings on earth, God wouldn't disrupt his laws for just one tiny human.
irrelevant matrix bit
God can change anything at any time whenever He wishes He also changes a lot of things based on his slaves asking Him in Dawaa
phoenix1 wrote:
It is up to us to bring about change. To improve ourselves and get closer to God.
Salat is not for God, it is for us. TO help us serve him.
BS
phoenix1 wrote:
Zakat is not something we pay, it is something we accomplish by doing good deeds (like charity) and through salat.
BS
phoenix1 wrote:
I do fast, but I'm not sure exactly what ramadan is or what the purpose of fasting is. But, again, it is FOR US. It is so that we live better lives.
A Typical confused
phoenix1 wrote:
The Quran is not a test.
it is a test and you failed that test
phoenix1 wrote:
Islam is not a test.
It is a test and you failed that test
phoenix1 wrote:
Life is not a test.
this is the main test and it seems you are heading for the ultimate failure on the JD
phoenix1 wrote:
We don't have to pass anything.
hahahaha, how can you prove your matrix statement above?
phoenix1 wrote:
But we have a choice, either to waste ourselves and live terrible lives, or make ourselves useful and live good, happy, peaceful lives.
The Quran helps us live a better life.
And who wrote that Quran?
phoenix1 wrote:
I have verified a lot. Not only from the quran, but a lot of information.
Yeh, yeh yeh , you main source is Satan library
[quote="phoenix1"]The quran teaches me to control my emotions and stay at peace, and I have tried doing that and it helps me. I can make better decisions when I am calm. The quran tells me that the majority always believe in conjecture, and so far I have found that to be right. The point is, no matter what quran we read, we must make sure that what it says is true.
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry bro, you keep repeating and I have no time to waste going through your repetitive non sense
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