Post subject: 4:34 One aspect of husband/wife relations
This was taken from two PMs between myself and Ahmed and was moved to this forum for easier access
If you are keen I have a few questions already, and cause I know you have already debated 4:34 it might be a good start. Actually what would be good if you could give me an idea of which quran has the most ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????accurate????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? english translation ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢?? that would help too.
From the MSA translations of 4:34 they put on the internet one says:
As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct,
As for those from whom ye fear rebellion
and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion
Which one is the most accurate from a literal translation of the Quran? What is the arabic word(s) they use and does it mean straight out disobedience or more of a public thing (if you know what I mean)?
I was also wondering if there was a time limit specified in the Quran ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢?? I thought about this when one translation Yusef Ali said:
????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly)????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
And I thought, would this cover a man who admonished, after 10 minutes said he wasn't going to sleep with his wife, and after 30 minutes decided to beat her?
While I understand that the verse is very much ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????forget about the past????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? in terms of women's disobedience, is there anything specific in that verse that says how a man should beat a woman? Thanks very much for taking the time to read my PM's and also being able to respond truthfully!
Let me know where we should do this - as long as it is easy for other people to see (ie no need to register to see it in a forum).
Last edited by rowlandm on Sat 25 Nov, 2006 10:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Sat 25 Nov, 2006 10:45 pm
rowlandm Pawn
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Post subject:
Quote:
rowlandm wrote:
and cause I know you have already debated 4:34 it might be a good start.
great, I actually copied the debate to my web site forum so you can pick it up from there and I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m very promot on my web site to reply to all irrespective of their religion, my web site also is a free speech one, i.e. you can say what you want as long as you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t mock Allah or any one of His great Prophets including Jesus and Mohammad
Quote:
rowlandm wrote:
Actually what would be good if you could give me an idea of which quran has the most ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????accurate????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? english translation ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢?? that would help too.
There is non indeed, but if I classify one as most accurate then I found that I use Shakir the most because he committed the least errors.
Quote:
rowlandm wrote:
From the MSA translations of 4:34 they put on the internet one says:
As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct,
As for those from whom ye fear rebellion
and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion
Which one is the most accurate from a literal translation of the Quran?
The first one is the accurate one to describe the Arabic word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Nishooz????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ILL CINDUCT, rebellion won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t fit because the wife may have a good reason to rebel, and desertion won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t fit either for the same reason, IT HAS TO BE ILL CONDUCT mate
Quote:
rowlandm wrote:
What is the arabic word(s) they use and does it mean straight out disobedience or more of a public thing (if you know what I mean)?
Nashiz,
And it applies for men and women
Nashiz means that you are committing something ugly in public or not
Quote:
rowlandm wrote:
I was also wondering if there was a time limit specified in the Quran ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢?? I thought about this when one translation Yusef Ali said:
No mate, there is no verse in the Quran to indicate a time limit, however with some laws like forbidding to marry two sisters at once or a step mother after the father dies was enforced with time line considered, i.e. the ones who married before two sisters at once or married their step mother didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t require to divorce them despite the act of doing so was described as Fahisha, i.e. something very very wrong, but Allah forgave what happened before the law was revealed as He told us in the Quran
Quote:
rowlandm wrote:
????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly)????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
The words (First), (Next), (And Last) and (Lightly) don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t appear in the Arabic text, however the Arabic context clearly indictae that these are the 3 options in that order that is why Y A added (first), (Next) and (And Last)
For the word Lightly, I totally disagree with him because there is nothing in the context that suugest it has to e light beating, however a husband who exhaust the first two options with an ill conduct wife, I'm sure he will beat her lightly and not with a hammer, he must have been a wise man to exhaust the first two options, there are many who just beat their wives on the spot including non muslims
Quote:
rowlandm wrote:
And I thought, would this cover a man who admonished, after 10 minutes said he wasn't going to sleep with his wife, and after 30 minutes decided to beat her?
this is a shifty man, of course he has to give her a chance to fix her ill conduct, however she can loose the first chance on the spot
for example imagine my wife is involved in ill conduct (God forbids), I go and tell her, please dear wife don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t do this again because this is bad according to this and that, she responds bluntly: fuk you ahmed, this means she lost the first option in the spot, however the second one can NOT be lost on the spot, because when she tells me to fuk me, I will tell fine, I will abandon you in bed and you won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be able to be fuked, haha, this option requires days at elast and even possibly weeks to see results, but if she insists on her conduct and I still love her and want to keep her as well want the good for her than I will beat her, otherwise she can simply see the highway without any beating whatsoever,
Quote:
rowlandm wrote:
While I understand that the verse is very much ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????forget about the past????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? in terms of women's disobedience, is there anything specific in that verse that says how a man should beat a woman?
absolutely not
but what we can understand from the verse that a husband who does not beat his wife during the first two options he has to go through must be a wise man indeed, most men loose it when their wives are involved in ill conduct, some support them in ill conduct
for example in Australia, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure you heard about the swingers clubs, now that is very dirty and filthy mate, how those husbands and wives do this ill conducts together?
Quote:
rowlandm wrote:
Thanks very much for taking the time to read my PM's and also being able to respond truthfully!
No worries bro, I really enjoy it, at least you are a very respectful man who criticise my religion with full respect and I thank you for that
Posted:
Sat 25 Nov, 2006 10:47 pm
rowlandm Pawn
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Ahmed,
From the very little that I know of you, I would find it difficult to believe that you would resort to any kind of physical violence against your wife, given that you would only beat her if you thought it would actually have a positive impact. Plus the fact that you would also have the local laws to consider.
Is there any circumstance where you personally would consider it appropriate (provided your wife kept doing the ill conduct) to beat her? Obviously the three step process is a cooling off period and if reasonable discussions fail due to differences of opinion would you probably consider divorce before domestic violence (please note this is a question based on the possible, not the probable - congrats on being married 15 years btw) ?
Cheers,
Rowland
Posted:
Sat 25 Nov, 2006 10:57 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
rowlandm wrote:
Ahmed,
Hello mate
rowlandm wrote:
From the very little that I know of you, I would find it difficult to believe that you would resort to any kind of physical violence against your wife, given that you would only beat her if you thought it would actually have a positive impact. Plus the fact that you would also have the local laws to consider.
Of course I will consider the local laws where I'm living with her, there is no doubt as a wise man that I will NOT make myself questionable by local flawed laws while all I wanted to do is to dicipline an ill conduct wife, in that case I will burry my love to her and start all over again with another woman, there are many good women out there
rowlandm wrote:
Is there any circumstance where you personally would consider it appropriate (provided your wife kept doing the ill conduct) to beat her?
in a country where I won't be questionable, then I will resport to the beating as a final resort and I want her to wake up, the beating is actually a proof of my love to her otherwise I would have easily thrown her in the streets and marry another woman,
rowlandm wrote:
Obviously the three step process is a cooling off period and if reasonable discussions fail due to differences of opinion would you probably consider divorce before domestic violence (please note this is a question based on the possible, not the probable - congrats on being married 15 years btw) ?
well, indeed if my wife insists on ill conduct after 15 years of marriage I will inly resport to the first two options even if I live in a country where I won't be charged for beating her, the reason for that is simply it will be great to change wives after 15 years of marruage if you know what i mean, possibly in the first 5 years i will hang to an ill conduct wife more than 10 years later, I know my opinion is a bit hard to break a 15 years marraige that easy, but again I will be left with the following options:
1) Live with her while she is committing ill conduct and does not want to be diciplined and i can't beat her
Finally, obviously the definition of the level of behaviour that is considered "ill-conduct" is based on the Quran. From your understanding of the Quran what would be some examples of behaviour that would be considered borderline (or minimal) ill conduct that would "activate" 4:34?
eg. (and please don't respond directly to these VERY POOR examples) something small like getting angry over a minor incident, or something more, like behaving rudely to your parents, or is it only big stuff like sexual promiscuity etc.
Actually, one more question, the part that says
Quote:
Taqiuddin Hilali and Muhammad Mushin Khan translation
because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means
is the whole of 4:34 still relevant if the woman is making more income that the husband? Don't laugh, my wife makes more than I do!
What are your thoughts?
Posted:
Sun 26 Nov, 2006 10:08 am
SlaveofAllaah Site Admin
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Post subject:
I am moving this topic to Examine as its no more a 1 on 1 debate
Posted:
Mon 27 Nov, 2006 5:19 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
Myr wrote:
Salam Ahmed, all,
I tend to disagree with you on some of your statements but for now I would like to tackle item # 7 and your claim about alcohol/fermentated drinks (khamr) in the light of the Quran.
Salam sister Myr
Thanks very much for educating me
I was not aware of 2:219 and you are 100% right 2:219 along with 7:33 must make the Khamr haram
Sorry for my ignornace and I'm really happy that you made me aware of it so i don't promote lies
Actually, got a couple of more questions/clarifications I didn't think of before, mainly to do with Ahmed's comments here:
Quote:
rowlandm wrote:
????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly)????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
For the word Lightly, I totally disagree with him because there is nothing in the context that suugest it has to e light beating, however a husband who exhaust the first two options with an ill conduct wife, I'm sure he will beat her lightly and not with a hammer, he must have been a wise man to exhaust the first two options, there are many who just beat their wives on the spot including non muslims
1/ Is what you are saying here is that while a wise man has more intellect and tools at his disposal so as to not resort to beating his wife in the first instance and then beating her lightly to reduce the physical harm to her in the third instance - Allah would still allow an unwise man (you know what I mean) who is following the Quran blindly (but in good faith) to beat his wife badly (potentially with a hammer)?
2/ As an addition to that, you seem to imply that there is no "strength" associated with the arabic word for beating (what is that word by the way?) as in not lightly or harshly. Does that mean that Allah's maximum limit for beating in 4:34 could possibly be something just under death (eg. coma or unconciousness) due to verses in the rest of the Quran (ie do not kill)? I would welcome all viewpoints (not just Ahmed's) on this as I know this one is a bit tricky because it needs an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Quran (to draw in other verses together) and I know that Ahmed tries his best with his current knowledge but like the khamr debate it might have to be a lot of people joining together to get an accurate response to this and for everyone to (potentially) learn something new. NOTE: I'd like to clarify this last sentence - I turn to Ahmed to provide me with an honest translation of what particular verses in the Quran mean (which I appreciate no end). But I recognise that I should not burden Ahmed with researching the entire Quran end to end just to answer a generic question I might have - that really is the job for a .... Imam or Mufti? I did not want to come across as having a poke at Ahmed's expense.
Thanks in advance!
Posted:
Mon 27 Nov, 2006 11:29 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
rowlandm wrote:
Actually, got a couple of more questions/clarifications I didn't think of before, mainly to do with Ahmed's comments here:
Hello mate
rowlandm wrote:
1/ Is what you are saying here is that while a wise man has more intellect and tools at his disposal so as to not resort to beating his wife
I must be very conservertaive that you add the word "ill conduct" before the word wife because the way been put it is like any wife should be beaten and this is the stratgy that i have seen from the enemy of Islam
rowlandm wrote:
in the first instance and then beating her lightly to reduce the physical harm to her in the third instance - Allah would still allow an unwise man (you know what I mean) who is following the Quran blindly (but in good faith) to beat his wife badly (potentially with a hammer)?
Fine, it is a test for the unwise husband then and sure he will be held accountable by Allah, it is exactly the same that Allah is allowing humans to kill exach other legally and illegally
rowlandm wrote:
2/ As an addition to that, you seem to imply that there is no "strength" associated with the arabic word for beating (what is that word by the way?) as in not lightly or harshly.
I would say, it may be like this:
Idrabuhuna Bi Shidda (beat them harshly)
Idrabuhuna Be Khiffa (beat them lightly)
we need another word to describe the beating and only then we can say if it is harsh or light or in between
rowlandm wrote:
Does that mean that Allah's maximum limit for beating in 4:34 could possibly be something just under death (eg. coma or unconciousness) due to verses in the rest of the Quran (ie do not kill)?
of course not, because in this case the husband who should be a believer from the first palce as well a wise man should not think of Allah this way because it makes no sense and will put the ill conduct wife life in danger
rowlandm wrote:
I would welcome all viewpoints (not just Ahmed's) on this as I know this one is a bit tricky because it needs an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Quran (to draw in other verses together) and I know that Ahmed tries his best with his current knowledge but like the khamr debate it might have to be a lot of people joining together to get an accurate response to this and for everyone to (potentially) learn something new. NOTE: I'd like to clarify this last sentence - I turn to Ahmed to provide me with an honest translation of what particular verses in the Quran mean (which I appreciate no end). But I recognise that I should not burden Ahmed with researching the entire Quran end to end just to answer a generic question I might have - that really is the job for a .... Imam or Mufti? I did not want to come across as having a poke at Ahmed's expense.
Thanks in advance!
you are welcome with your questions anytime mate, believe me I learn a lot trying to find answers
I learnt something important today from sister Myr which I really appreciate
For your reply you put down your belief on the strength of the beating - I was looking for an explicit quranic verse or sentence that could be allied to 4:34 to show what the maximum strength Allah would accept.
Quote:
rowlandm wrote: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¹ Select ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????º
Does that mean that Allah's maximum limit for beating in 4:34 could possibly be something just under death (eg. coma or unconciousness) due to verses in the rest of the Quran (ie do not kill)?
of course not, because in this case the husband who should be a believer from the first palce as well a wise man should not think of Allah this way because it makes no sense and will put the ill conduct wife life in danger
Posted:
Tue 28 Nov, 2006 5:34 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
Hello mate
There is none as far as I believe
but do you think a human can take 100 lashes while keeping conciousness?
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Here is a repeated discussion regarding beating the ill conduct wives which I replied to on FFI in a different way:
fire-snake wrote:
Bahgat, what kind of ill conduct of wives that deserve the beating?
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Actually your question is flawed
here is how you should have asked your question:
Bahgat, what kind of ill conduct of wives who insist on it that deserve the beating?
Now when I go home I will reply to the modified and proper question above
fire-snake wrote:
OK. I'll wait for the next 6 hours. &
Ok fs, now I have a few minutes to waste with you, I'm sure that you know that I replied to this question many times, but it seems you just want to talk to me which is fine, we can do it on the phone too if you like, you can call me reverse charge
Firstly, ill conduct can be categorised under two groups:
A) Religious ill conduct
B) Non religious ill conduct
However, I consider that the non religious ill conduct to be a religious violation as well therefore I will just give you a lot of examples that for me are all religion violations
Ill conduct in Arabic means Nishooz, i.e. something that is not normal, either not normal according to a religion been followed or not normal to common sense
The ill conduct may be committed by the husband or the wife, however let me just concentrate on the wife for now.
Here is some examples of a wife's ill conducts:
1- Drug addict
2- Wearing cloth that exposes parts of her body like your avatar
3- Mocking the in-laws or others
4- Shop lifting
5- Dirty with her own hygiene
6- Dirty with the house hygiene
7- Beating the children for no reason
8- Stealing money from the husband wallet
9- Talking ill about neighbours and others
10- Smoking
11- Alcohol addict
The above is based on the assumption that the wife is the only one who is Nashiz while the husband is pious
For the pious husband, we have only these possibilities:
A) He still loves her and wants to continue the life with her
B) He does not love her any more and does not want to continue life with him
For the ill conduct wife, we also have only these possibilities:
C) She loves him and wants to continue the life with him
D) She does not love him and does not want to continue life with him
From the above we have only the following 4 possibilities:
1) AC
2) AD
3) BC
4) BD
Not sure if you are smart enough to understand the above, but let me assume for now that you are smart
Let?????????????????????¢??s now walkthrough all the 4 possibilities above and eliminate what is not valid under the Quran beating verse
For a pious husband who does not love his Nashiz wife any more i.e. B, then BC and BD are not logically valid and has to be eliminated, this is because
If a pious husband does not love his Nashiz wife any more, regardless she loves him or not, he has only one option which is to divorce her, this is because she is insisting on her ill conduct and he does not love her any more, i.e. her insistence on her ill conduct will be the quick excuse for a pious husband to get rid of his ill conduct wife regardless she loves him or not
For a pious husband who still loves his Nashiz wife who is insisting on her ill conduct, i.e. A, then AD, must also be eliminated, this is because for a pious husband will not accept to live with an ill conduct wife while she does not love him any more, in fact the Quran warns the pious men to hold their wives in a marriage lock against their desires,
We now are left with the only possibility that applies to the beating verse in the Quran, which is AC, i.e. a pious husband who still loves his ill conduct wife and she also loves him and both want to continue life together
The pious husband may do the following in order:
1) Admonish and advice her POLITELY to fix her flaws by either STOPING IT or CHANGING IT, but if she insist on her ill conduct then:
2) Abandon her in bed, but if she still insist on her conduct then
3) Beat her, but if she still insists on here conduct then:
4) Divorce her
Here you have it, now I reserve my right to continue or dismiss any further dialogue between us regrading this subject, and btw my comment above to you will be copied to my web site into one of the threads that discussed beating the ill conduct wives in the Quran
Cheers
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Wed 28 Jul, 2010 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Tue 06 May, 2008 10:54 pm
Myxtic Pawn
Status: Age: 37 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
The pious husband may do the following in order:
1) Admonish and advice her POLITELY to fix her flaws by either STOPING IT or CHANGING IT, but if she insist on her ill conduct then:
2) Abandon her in bed, but if she still insist on her conduct then
3) Beat her, but if she still insists on here conduct then:
4) Divorce her
bro .... i have a confusion which is based on a question raised by a Muslim brother ....
can DARABA here mean to separate / leave / go away / forsake .... ??
he showed me the following link to put forth his point ....
ض ر ب = Daad-Ra-Ba = to heal, strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix, avoid, take away, put a cover, shut, mention, state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, seek a way, march own, set, impose, prevent, fight, traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, leave for sake, take away thing (with 'an).
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Post subject:
Myxtic wrote:
Quote:
The pious husband may do the following in order:
1) Admonish and advice her POLITELY to fix her flaws by either STOPING IT or CHANGING IT, but if she insist on her ill conduct then:
2) Abandon her in bed, but if she still insist on her conduct then
3) Beat her, but if she still insists on here conduct then:
4) Divorce her
bro .... i have a confusion which is based on a question raised by a Muslim brother ....
can DARABA here mean to separate / leave / go away / forsake .... ??
he showed me the following link to put forth his point ....
ض ر ب = Daad-Ra-Ba = to heal, strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix, avoid, take away, put a cover, shut, mention, state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, seek a way, march own, set, impose, prevent, fight, traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, leave for sake, take away thing (with 'an).
I know that web site, it is motivated or at least promoting the free minders idolgies trying to hide their so called embarrasment when other confont then with such very common method to flaw the Quran
for the word Daraba to mean Avoid, or stay away from, IT MUST HAVE THE WORD AN after it, I have shown a clear Quran example for such, yet it does noot really need a Quran verse to confirm it, rather needs the knoweldge of almost all Arabiic words and its grammar to get the right meaning for it
Please see the verse where the words Daraba An appeared
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