Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject: Mohammad and Aisha
Hello all
This is another silly discussion of Faith Freedom web site:
Nevermind wrote:
1- What you accept or not isn't my problem. I do accept it, Muslims do accept it. I will quote the sheikh who made me memorize some parts of the koran when I was young, he always say when I got too inquisitive:
Sheikh wrote:
You can't choose what you like and discard what you dislike in our religion
Of course the sheikh is right, he should have told you also that you are one of those typical confused humans who want to made their own man made god according to their own low desires, it is called the feel good religion
Nevermind wrote:
I am criticizing the followed Islam, I can't tell every Muslim to stop and ask him about what he believes in and what he doesn't, then criticize every belief of every person in a thread, I believe that Mohammed was a pedophile for marrying such a young girl,
What a confused woman you are
See the confusion in your own statement, here it is highlighted in red:
, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????I believe that Mohammed was a pedophile for marrying such a young girl????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
Paedophiles don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t marry children you ignorant, they molest them
Nevermind wrote:
and you don't....As I said "believe"...If you believe that he's the greatest man who ever lived on this third stone then I have no problem, but I have the right to believe that he was the worse human being ever born and equate him with Hitler, Those are points of view.
Of course, that is what you expect from Satan submitter (a kafir) like ya to say, do you think you impressed me or something with your silly and used by date comment above?
Now in your western country if you defame someone without any proofs, you will be held accountable and you know it however because you are a clear cut coward you chose a dead man to defame, and the likes of you have no honour whatsoever in this life
As if you are the protector of the children of the world, as if you are a bloody campaigner against paedophilia, indeed if anyone is legally married in any country to a young woman, YOU CAN????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢T DO SHIT ABOUT IT
You are just been itchy that you know well there is a chance (even if it is 1%) that you will head to the worst place ever for eternity, then you will cry blood not tears, that place is called HELL, that is why you are trying to relief your itch by constantly attacking a dead man, you are a coward indeed, look at your avatar where you wish to be in a place where God does not exit, see, you even know well inside your heart that it is going to be hard to find that place, if you are not confused and God does not exist for ya then you are already living on earth where God does not exist , but the point is you proved that you are so confused beyond repairs
Nevermind wrote:
2- Whether I am confused or not is my problem,
That is right, but please don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be a coward and defame a dead man, it is not like they will bring him from his tomb and prosecute him you moron, you are only targeting the believers and his followers, someone like you is an enemy to Allah, therefore you are an enemy to the believers
Nevermind wrote:
You can't just start insulting me because I said something that you don't like.
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not insulting you, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m saying the exact truth to what I feel about you, indeed I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m being very honest with ya, you are a very confused and malice woman
Nevermind wrote:
3- What you're saying is brutal in my opinion, A young girl doesn't understand what's right from what's wrong. When you've just reached puberty you're still a child,
Knock it off fool, you are not the speaker of the young women of the world, in fact you are a joke
Nevermind wrote:
that's why there's something called "Age of consent" my friend,
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not your friend you confused, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m your enemy, I believed and you disbelieved now you are attacking my belief hence you are an enemy
Here is something for you to read about the age of consent you double faced enemy of Allah: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? The age of consent for heterosexual vaginal sex was 12 until 1890 when parliament raised it to 14. It remained there until 1985 when it was raised to 18 in cases where an adult partner is in a position of authority over a minor .????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
This means 1300 earlier it was common for young women to marry the moment they reach puberty, you have no bloody point whatsoever other than a sick agenda to defame a dead man and this 1.5 billion followers, ironically most paedophiles are non Muslims as you know, in Australia there are many, those paedophile don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t marry their molested children miss ignorant
You have been very itchy about Mohammad legal marriage to Aysha, fine miss speaker of the young women of all generations, here is something lengthy for you to read as well you will be entertained:
Aisha - Criticism Addressed & Entertained Myself and many other Muslims should no longer be surprised by the double standard that the enemy of Islam display when they criticize the conduct of Prophet Muhammad, since we've heard it for so long. To have an atheist, agnostic - or anyone else who does not believe in a Divinely revealed basis for morality - criticize something that is "politically incorrect" by today's moral standards comes as no surprise. Such people will always find something to criticize, since they simply have a bone to pick with "religion" in general. All of this "absolute morality" talk gets in the way of them having a good time, so they want to mock it, discredit it and do away with it.
The criticism of the enemy of Islam, however, is another matter. While it is true that the enemy of Islam speak out against the "moral relativity" which is spreading amongst the increasingly secular society today, they too are unconscious victims of it. The values of most of the enemy of Islam today come from the humanist values of Western Europe (or, at a minimum, are heavily influenced by them).
Their values do not come straight out of the Bible - in theory or in practice - regardless of what they may claim. The enemy of Islam today try to take credit for the so-called "Freedom", "Human Rights", "Democracy" and "Women's Rights" in Europe and America is nothing short of a joke. It may impress uneducated people in so-called Third World countries, but anyone who has studied history knows that these things came about in spite of the Church, not because of it. The way in which many Christians uncritically mix non-Christian values with (allegedly) Biblical values has always fascinated me.
One interesting example of this is how nationalism and patriotism are supported amongst the majority of Evangelical Protestant (and even other) Christians in the United States. In America, good Christians are flag wavers. Few, if any, of these fiercely patriotic minds ever seem to realize that narrow-minded patriotism is both selfish and non-universal at its core. That patriotism and Christianity go hand-in-hand in the minds of many people is just an example of how we can be blindly sucked into "moral relativism" without even realizing it.
According to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, right and wrong are ordained by Almighty God. As such, morality does not change over time based on our whims, desires or cultural sensitivities. In cultures where there is no Divinely revealed ruling on an issue, what is right and what is wrong is determined by cultural norms. In such cases, a person would only be considered "immoral" if they violated the accepted norms of their society. As we will demonstrate, the Prophet Muhammad's marriage to Aishah, viewed both in the light of Absolute Morality and the cultural norms of his time, was not an immoral act, but was an act containing valuable lessons for generations to come.
Additionally, this marriage followed the norms for all Semitic peoples, including those of Biblical times. Based on this, and other information that is provided below, it is grossly hypocritical for Christians or Jews to criticise the Prophet's( marriage to Aishah at such a young age. In case Christian/Jew readers are under the false impression that their values today are timeless and somehow reflect those of Biblical times, please consider the following points which are directly related to the question of at what age a person is properly ready to be married:
Keeping in mind the ideas of "political correctness" and "absolute morality", in Biblical times the age at which a girl could marry was puberty. However, during the Middle Ages it was usually twelve years old. Now in most "Christian" countries it is between fourteen and sixteen years old. In America where some states allow partners of the same sex to legally marry, but consider an eighteen year old boy who sleeps with a sixteen year old girl a "statutory rapist".
So even though Christians????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢Jews might disagree with much of what is becoming all too prevalent in Western society today - whether it be drug abuse, gay marriages or abortion - they too have been swallowed up (possibly unknowingly) by the ugly monster of "moral relativism" Certainly, they might be giving in less quickly than people who have no Divine basis for their morality, but they're giving in nonetheless.
Historically, the age at which a girl was considered ready to be married has been puberty. This was the case in Biblical times, as we will discussed below, and is still used to determine the age of marriage in what the culturally arrogant West calls "primitive societies" throughout the world. As the ahadith about Aishah's age show, her betrothal took place at least three years before the consummation of the marriage.
The reason for this was that they were waiting for her to come of age (i.e. to have her first menstrual period). Puberty as a biological sign shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this?
Part of the wisdom behind the Prophet's marriage to Aishah just after she reached puberty is to firmly establish this as a point of Islamic Law, even though it was already cultural norm in all Semitic societies (including the one Jesus grew up in). The large majority of Islamic jurists say that the earliest time a marriage can be consummated is on the onset sexual maturity (bulugh), meaning puberty. Since this was the norm of all Semitic cultures and it still is the norm of many cultures today: it is certainly not something that Islam invented. However, widespread opposition to such a Divinely revealed and accepted historical norm is certainly something that is relatively new.
The criticism of Muhammad's marriage to Aishah is something relatively new in that it grew up out of the values of "Post Enlightenment" Europe. This was a Europe that had abandoned (or at least modified) its religious morality for a new set of humanist values where people used their own opinions to determine what was right and wrong. It is interesting to note that Christians/Jews from a very early time criticized (again hypocritically) the Prophet's( practice of polygamy, but not the marriage to Aishah. Certainly, those from a Middle Eastern Semitic background would not have found anything to criticize, since nothing abnormal or immoral took place. It is"modern" Westernized Christians/Jews/Atheists who began to criticize Muhammad on this point, not earlier pre-Enlightenment ones.
It is upon reaching the age of puberty that a person, man or woman, becomes legally responsible under Islamic Law. At this point, they are allowed to make their own decisions and are held accountable for their actions. It should also be mentioned that in Islam, it is unlawful to force someone to marry someone that they do not want to marry. The evidence shows that Aishah's marriage to the Prophet Muhammad was one which both parties and their families agreed upon. Based on the culture at that time, no one saw anything wrong with it. On the contrary, they were all happy about it.
None of the Muslim sources report that anyone from the society at that time criticized this marriage due to Aishah's young age. On the contrary, the marriage of Aishah to the Prophet was encouraged by Aishah's father, Abu Bakr, and was welcomed by the community at large. It is reported that women who wanted to help the Prophet, such as Khawlah bint al-Hak????????????????????????????????????®m, encouraged him to marry the young Aishah. Due to the Semitic culture in which they lived, they certainly saw nothing wrong with such a marriage.
Society's ideas of love, family and marriage are much different in the so-called "modern" and "civilized" West of today than they were in Biblical or Quranic times. Unfortunately, many of us carry the baggage of "romantic love" and ideas about sex that have managed to poison our minds since the Europeans (and their ideas) came to dominate the globe. These ideas have not only penetrated into the minds of Muslims, but actually permeate many of them. The European colonial powers have pulled out of almost all Muslim lands, but the colonization of the minds continues! As we mentioned above, the sad part is that most people do not even realize that they are under such un-Godly influences. Just to reference the way things have changed, a statement in The New Encyclopaedia Britannica makes it clear that values regarding the proper age of marriage have been changing over the years:
. . . in the United States and parts of Europe the association of adult status with sexual maturity as expressed in the term puberty rites has been unwelcome".
The significance that sex and sexuality are thought to play in human psychology has its roots in Freudian thought. Even though many of Freud's ideas are being heavily challenged today, many of his ideas still play a role in the thinking of many people. Sigmund Freud (1856-1939) taught that humans are basically "sexual beings" whose childhood sexual urges are the key to understanding them.
He developed the methodology of psychoanalysis and his ideas on sex, repressed guilt and sexuality, the unconscious sex drive, the Oedipus complex and other ideas have come to almost haunt the Western view of sexuality (almost as much as the repressive views of the Roman Catholic Church). Needless to say, Freud's ideas have been criticized by believing Jews, Christians and Muslims since they basically deny human moral responsibility. In Freud's view of things, human beings are prisoners to the effects of unconscious forces and their sex drive.
Such ideas are always welcomed by "liberals", "humanists" and others like them. The point of all this in regards to young marriage, however, might be less clear. What needs to be pointed out is the contradictory "modern" Western view of sexuality. They are taken aback by the thought of marriage at the age of puberty, even though it's an age old custom. However, they have junior high schools where sex education is taught and a society where sexually promiscuous "dating" is considered the norm.
Sometimes sex is simply a natural pleasure to be enjoyed, but at other times it is a psychological demon of far reaching consequences. In short, everything from their private lives to their court systems, have fallen victim to the moral relativity of the psychiatrists and psychologists. The attitude that any experience in life can be seen as some sort of "trauma" is very widespread. Many people go through life constantly obsessed about what sort of "complex" they may be suffering from due to experiences they've had in their relatively normal life. The morality which is produced by such attitudes all but does away with human responsibility. People who are guilty of serious crimes, instead of being held responsible for their actions, are themselves considered "victims", since they are only doing what their psychological makeup causes them to do.
Puberty = Maturity = Marriage
These points having been presented, some additional details on a few of them is worthwhile. An interesting article on the age at which people married in Biblical times is Ancient Israelite Marriage Customs, by Jim West, ThD - a Baptist minister. This article states that:
The wife was to be taken from within the larger family circle (usually at the outset of puberty or around the age of 13) in order to maintain the purity of the family line;
This is just one reference to the fact that the onset of puberty was considered the age at which young people could marry. That people in Biblical times married at an early age is widely endorsed. While discussing the meaning of the word 'almah, which is the Hebrew word for "young woman" or "adolescent female", Gerald Segal says:
It should be noted, however, that in biblical times females married at an early age.
In spite of its somewhat arrogant Western talk of "primitive cultures", An Overview of the World's Religions makes it clear that puberty is an age old symbol of adulthood:
Almost all primitive cultures pay attention to puberty and marriage rituals, although there is a general tendency to pay more attention to the puberty rites of males than of females. Because puberty and marriage symbolize the fact that children are acquiring adult roles, most primitive cultures consider the rituals surrounding these events very important. Puberty rituals are often accompanied with ceremonial circumcision or some other operation on the male genitals. Female circumcision is less common, although it occurs in several cultures. Female puberty rites are more often related to the commencement of the menstrual cycle in young girls.
Some female authors agree:
Puberty is defined as the age or period at which a person is first capable of sexual reproduction, in other eras of history, a rite or celebration of this landmark event was a part of the culture. (Rites of Passage: Puberty, by Sue Curewitz Arthen)
"Getting your period" marks a rite of passage for young girls entering womanhood.
(From the Women's Resource Center)
Another contemporary reference relating marriage age to puberty is an article on Central Africa, which says:
. . . women marry soon after puberty. (Central Africa", The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th Edition (1987), Volume 15, page 646. See also "Aboriginal Australia", The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th Edition (1987), Volume 14, page 425. For additional references to the marriage customs in Biblical times, see Israel: Its Life and Culture, by Johannes Pedersen, Volume 1, page 60ff.)
There are many other references which should prove to any intelligent person what anthropologists and historians already know: in centuries past, people were considered ready for marriage when they reached puberty.
It should be mentioned that from an Islamic point of view, many problems in society today can be traced back to the abandonment of early marriage. Due to the way that Almighty God has created man and woman, i.e., with strong sexual desires, people should marry young. In the past, this was even more true since life expectancy was very low (i.e. you were considered "old" if you made it to 40!) Not only does marriage provide a legal outlet for people with strong sexual desires, but it usually produces more children. One of the main purposes of marriage is to produce children as the Bible says -:
"be fruitful and multiply"
(Genesis 8:17).
The Age Of Puberty
Even though we have established that puberty has been the historical, cultural and religious norm for indicating readiness for marriage, some may wonder at which age puberty normally takes place. This is somewhat meaningless in regards to our specific discussion of Muhammad and Aishah, since the hadith literature makes it clear that she had reached puberty. However, in regards to puberty and at what age most girls have their first menstrual cycle, we read in the famous book Women :
Islam has laid down no age limit for puberty for it varies with countries and races due to the climate, hereditary, physical and social conditions. Those who live in cold regions attain puberty at a much later age as compared with those living in hot regions where both male and female attain it at a quite early age. "The average temperature of the country or province, is considered the chief factor here, not only with regard to menstruation but as regards the whole of sexual development at puberty." (Herman H. Ploss, Max Bartels and Paul Bartels, Woman, Volume I, Lord & Bransby, 1988, page 563.)
Raciborski, Jaubert, Routh and many others have collected and collated statistics on the subject to which readers are referred. They have summarised some of these data as follows:
(a) The limit of age for the first appearance of menstruation is between nine and twenty-four in the temperate-zone;
(b) The average age varies widely and it may be accepted as established that the nearer the Equator, the earlier the average age for menstruation.
Additionally, an article entitled Puberty in Girls by an Australian government Public Health organization, says:
The first sign of puberty is usually a surge of growth: you become taller; your breasts develop; hair begins to grow in the pubic area and under the arms. This may start from 10 years to 14 years - even earlier for some and later for others.
An article Physical Changes in Girls During Puberty has this to say:
During puberty, a girl's body changes, inside and out, into the body of a woman. The changes don't come all at once, and they don't happen at the same time for everybody. Most girls start showing physical changes around age 11, but everyone has her own internal schedule for development. It's normal for changes to start as early as 8 or 9 years of age, or not until 13 or 14. Even if nothing looks or feels different yet, the changes may have already begun inside your body.
Many will readily agree with the information above, but still might harbour reservations about whether a marriage to an older man could be happy for such a young girl. Putting aside the modern Western notions of "happiness" for a moment, the marriage of Aishah and the Prophet was a mutually happy and loving one as in expressed in numerous hadith and books. That happy marriages occur between people with a fairly large difference in ages is known among psychologists:
When the differences (in ages) is great, e.g. exceeds fifteen to twenty years, the results may be happier. The marriage of an elderly (senescent) not, of course, an old (senile) man to a quite young girl, is often very successful and harmonious. The bride is immediately introduced and accustomed to moderate sexual intercourse. (Theodor H. Vandevelde, Ideal Marriage : Its Physiology and Technique, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1980, p. 243.)
More Wisdom Behind It
In his comments on the ahadith in Sah????????????????????????????????????®h Muslim which mention Aishah's young marriage to the Prophet cAbdul-Ham????????????????????????????????????®d Siddiq????????????????????????????????????® shows three other reasons for this marriage:
Aishah's marriage to the Prophet Muhammad at an early age allowed her to be an eyewitness to the personal details of his life and carry them on to the succeeding generations. By being both spiritually and physically near to the Prophet(P), the marriage prepared 'Aishah to be an example to all Muslims, especially women, for all times. She developed into a spiritual teacher and scholar, since she was remarkably intelligent and wise. Her qualities help support the Prophet's work and further the cause of Islam. Aishah, the Mother of the Believers, was not only a model for wives and mothers, but she was also a commentator on the Quran, an authority on had????????????????????????????????????®th and knowledgeable in Islamic Law. She narrated at least 2,210 ah????????????????????????????????????¢d????????????????????????????????????®th that give Muslims valuable insights into the Final Prophet's daily life and behaviour, thus preserving the Sunnah of Muhammad.
At that time, this marriage refuted the notion that a man could not marry the daughter of a man who he had declared to be his "brother" (even in the religious sense). Since the Prophet and Abu Bakr had declared each other to be "brothers", this notion was done away with. This is demonstrated in the following hadith:
Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for Aishah's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said, "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in God's religion and His Book, but she (Aishah) is lawful for me to marry."
Not Much Ado Back Then
Above, we established the fact that getting married at puberty was an accepted practice amongst not only today's "primitive cultures", but specifically amongst the Semitic (i.e. Hebrew, Arab, Syriac, etc.) peoples of the Middle East. In order to provide additional proof that Muhammad's(P) marriage to Aishah did not raise any eyebrows at that time, I submit here quotations from two Western female scholars who have studied Islam in detail:
It is not clear just when the marriage actually took place. According to some versions, it was in the month of Shawwal of the Year 1, that is, some seven or eight months after the arrival at Medina; but, according to others, it was not until after the Battle of Badr, that is, in Shawwal of the second year of the Hijrah. In no version is there any comment made on the disparity of the ages between Mohammed and Aishah or on the tender age of the bride who, at the most, could not have been over ten years old and who was still much enamoured with her play." (Nabia Abbott, Aishah-The Beloved of Mohammed, Al-Saqi Books, London, 1985, page 7)
In the above quotation, the sources which are given for the latter are "Nawawi" and "Tabari". Both Im????????????????????????????????????¢ms al-Naw????????????????????????????????????¢w????????????????????????????????????® and al-Tabar????????????????????????????????????® were great Muslim scholars, but their works contain material that is less than authentic by Islamic standards, which is probably the reason over her questioning which date is authentic.
This is all beside the point, since we've already shown that authentic Islamic sources state that Aishah, may God be pleased with her, was "nine years old". The main point to note is that "no version" was any comment made on their age difference or on Aishah's young age. Why? Such an early marriage was normal in all Semitic societies - such as the ones that Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad grew up in!
Another author, Karen Armstrong, has this to add:
Tabari says that she was so young that she stayed in her parents' home and the marriage was consummated there later when she had reached puberty. (Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, page 157.)
This further establishes that the marriage took place at puberty and that, as such, no eyebrows were raised. "Tabari", it should be mentioned, refers to Ab????????????????????????????????????» Jacfar Muhammad ibn Jar????????????????????????????????????®r al-Tabar????????????????????????????????????® (225-310 AH / 839-923 CE), who was a great Muslim scholar who is well known in the West for his Quranic commentary and history of the world.
It is no surprise that both of the above authors agree on the fact that the marriage of Aishah and Muhammad took place when the former had reached puberty and that this was normal at the time. This is no surprise, since anyone who studies the Muslim sources and Semitic culture would be forced to come to the same conclusion, since it is simply a historical fact. It should be pointed out that both of the above quoted female authors do not hesitate to misrepresent Islam (intentionally or unintentionally) in their other writings.
Suffice it to say that if there was some other "damaging" information available, they would not hesitate to bring it to light. Nabia Abbott, who has done some useful research on Islam in some areas, was basically an "Orientalist" in the classic sense. Her book which was quoted above, Aishah-The Beloved of Mohammed, is actually nothing but a disgusting second-guessing of Aishah's life. If a book with a similar mix of speculation and inauthentic sources were written about someone of significance in the West, it certainly would not be sitting on scholarly bookshelves. It has long been established that Orientalists with a bone to pick with Islam liked to decide on the authenticity of a story based on their preconceived notions. If an inauthentic story seemed to belittle the Prophet of Islam, it became oft quoted. However, any authentic material that contradicted their theories was simply ignored. It's analogous to writing a historical biography of Jesus( and using quotations from apocryphal gospels to override the Canonical ones whenever whimsically deemed appropriate. This is how Orientalists and Christian missionaries have been treating Muhammad for centuries.
So What's The Verdict?
Overcoming cultural bias or admitting your own double standards is not always easy. For some people, it takes years for them to admit that they've been hypocritical. Hopefully, the thoughts presented here will plant the seed of reflection in some people so that they may reflect on the truth. Admitting that there's a problem is often half the battle, so before the reader heads off to make a final personal judgment on where they stand on this issuewe will provide some more food for thought. Montgomery Watt, a researcher, had some choice words on how the West should judge Years of studying Islam brought Watt to this conclusion:
The other main allegations of moral defect in Muhammad are that he was treacherous and lustful . . . Sufficient has been said above about the interpretation of these events to show that the case against Muhammad is much weaker than is sometimes thought. The discussions of these allegations, however, raises a fundamental question. How are we to judge Muhammad? By the standards of his own time and country? Or by those of the most enlightened opinion in the West today? When the sources are closely scrutinized, it is clear that those of Muhammad's actions which are disapproved by the modern West were not the object of the moral criticism of his contemporaries. They criticized some of his acts, but their motives were superstitious prejudice or fear of the consequences.
If they criticized the events at Nakhlah, it was because they feared some punishment from the offended pagan gods or the worldly vengeance of the Meccans. If they were amazed at the mass execution of the Jews of the clan of Qurayzah, it was at the number and danger of the blood-feuds incurred. The marriage with Zaynab seemed incestuous, but this conception of incest was bound up with old practices belonging to a lower, communalistic level of familial institutions where a child's paternity was not definitely known; and this lower level was in process being eliminated by Islam . . . From the standpoint of Muhammad's time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad's standards were higher than those of his time. In his day and generation he was a social reformer, even a reformer in the sphere of morals. He created a new system of social security and a new family structure, both of which were a vast improvement on what went before. By taking what was best in the morality of the nomad and adapting it for settled communities, he established a religious and social framework for the life of many races of men. That is not the work of a traitor or 'an old lecher'. (W. Montgomery Watt, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman, Oxford University Press, 1961, page 229)
From Abraham(P) To "Pick-And-Choose / Feel Good Religion
Everything that we have discussed above logically frees Muhammad from the unjust criticism that he has received (at least amongst those who can be intellectually honest and fair-minded). One point, however, still needs to be made a bit more clear. Even though we've mentioned it in passing, the hypocrisy and double standards of the enemy of Islam who criticize Muhammad for his morality needs to be more thoroughly analysed and exposed.
Before moving on to an analysis of Biblical morality, I would like to offer some advice and encouraging words to my fellow Muslims. My main piece of advice is to not be discouraged by slanderous attacks on Islam or how it is distorted by the enemy of Islam. Certainly, we all hate to see such things occur, but in the "Information Age" which was brought about by a culture that (allegedly) places a supreme value on freedom of speech, there is not much that we can do to stop it. The flip side to this coin is the fact that the Truth of Islam is still out there and people are finding it. Yes, Islam is spreading in spite of these hypocritical methods that the enemy of Islam and others are using to stop it. From the "moon god" lies of Robert Morey to the almost daily distortions in the media, Islam is still spreading in the West. Actually, the fact that those who make a career out of attacking Islam, such as the enemy of Islam missionaries, have to resort to lies and distortions when they discuss Islam, is a good sign. Certainly, if they discussed Islam as it was meant to be understood, they would only be hurting their own cause.
When Islam is presented by non-Muslims in the West, usually matters of peripheral importance are addressed and criticised. The core beliefs of Islam, if discussed at all, are presented in a distorted manner. If Islam was just some ridiculous "Third World" religion with no appeal, they would not have to treat it this way. As a matter of fact, a great deal of the anti-Islamic literature that fills the enemy of Islam bookstores (and the Internet) is not designed to convert Muslims, but to turn Westerners off to Islam. The people who write these lies are just trying to poison the minds of people so that they won't be receptive to the message of Islam when they hear it.
Their methods, however, are failing. In Europe especially, the Christian religion is in a severe state of stagnation and people are looking for truth elsewhere. Christians have always been embarrassed by their almost complete inability to convert a notable Muslim to Christianity. Certainly, they have their converts that they hold up as examples, however all of them seem to have been only nominal Muslims (at best) when they converted. However, many notable Westerners have embraced Islam, recently as well as in the past. One of the most interesting things about this is many (if not all) of these people could be called "Searchers for the Truth". By this I mean that they were the type of people who were spiritual, open-mined and read books on many subjects. They were not brainwashed simpletons who simply wanted to join an easy religion and the dominating culture of the time. They were people who knew a lot not only about religion, but about history, philosophy and other disciplines. Suffice it to say that the truth of Islam is out there, in spite of all the negative press that it gets today. The following is just one testimony that Islam is spreading in the West:
Unprecedented numbers of British people, nearly all of them women, are converting to Islam at a time of deep divisions within the Anglican and Catholic churches. The rate of conversions has prompted predictions that Islam will rapidly become an important religious force in this country . . . Within the next 20 years the number of British converts will equal or overtake the immigrant Muslim community that brought the faith here", says Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher at a Hull comprehensive and the author of a textbook guide to the Koran. She says: "Islam is as much a world faith as is Roman Catholicism. No one nationality claims it as its own". Islam is also spreading fast on the continent and in America. (The Times , London, Tuesday, November 9th, 1993, Home-News page)
Thanks be to God that many of us who are former "pew warmers" finally decided to go out and investigate what they try to spoon feed us from the pulpit and TV. Why does Islam succeed in attracting Christians and others? Because it's the Clear Way of Abraham. No other religion today can honestly claim this! Islam isn't just a "feel good" religion where they just tell you what you want to hear and read selected verses from the Bible.
Most Christians today approach religion like they do Sunday brunch: they take what they like and leave what they don't like. They have this attitude in spite of the fact that Abraham is held up in their Bible as a towering example of faith. Abraham, who was going to sacrifice his own son because Almighty God commanded it, certainly knew the basis of morality. It is clear in both the Bible and the Quran that Abraham knew that whatever God commands is the right thing to do. However, how many Christians today can say that they honestly believe that on all issues? How many of them have reflected on the moral ramifications of what is contained in their Bible? Seemingly, not even their learned apologists who attack Islam have reflected on it too deeply!
The question "What is our basis for morality?" is an easy one for those who follow the faith of Abraham - and that's what Islam is. Islam is submission to the Will of Almighty God - "We hear and we obey"- the faith of our father Abraham. If it was good enough for Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, then it's good enough for me! It is this truth and this attitude that attracts people to Islam. The entire basis of Islam, which produces this attitude, is Unity - the Unity of Almighty God and the unity of mankind. To be sure, the message of Islam appeals to the very nature of man. No wonder it is spreading! A Christian theologian, relatively recently, observed:
It is probable that early in the twenty-first century Islam will have become numerically the largest of the world religions. (John Hick, The Metaphor of God Incarnate, Westminster/John Knox Press, 1993, page 87)
A Case Study In Biblical Morality
Now that we've taken a detailed look at an alleged moral difficulty in the life of Muhammad(P), for the sake of balance, let's take a look at a moral difficulty in the Bible. We've already made statements above concerning the nature of Biblical morality, but many readers may be unaware of some of its "difficulties". For better or for worse, in Sunday school they generally skip the verses which we are going to deal with below. However, these verses certainly are useful tools in putting intellectually honest Christians in the same "moral dilemna" that they think Muslims should be in due to Muhammad's( young marriage to Aishah, may God be pleased with her. It should be kept in mind that the purpose of this discussion is the basis for morality, not the inspiration of the Bible (or lack thereof). For the purposes of this discussion, we accept the Bible "as is". However, this should not be interpreted to mean that we are endorsing it as the "Word of God" in toto.
On the other hand, it should not be interpreted to mean that we are attacking the "Word of God", since we are discussing it simply because Christians consider it to be the "Word of God" (whatever their particular definition might be). The portion of the Bible that we want to look at begins with the Book of Numbers, Chapter 31, verses 17 and 18. Here, Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children. The order continues with the following:
". . . kill every woman who has known man by lying with him, but all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers ; 31:17-18)
One can only guess how the Israelites determined who the virgins were. Most probably, they did it based on age and maturity, assuming that all of the female "children" who had not reached puberty were virgins. Keep in mind that this was done, according to the Bible, on God's command to "Avenge the Israelites on the Midianites". Later, God gives Moses instructions on how to divide up the booty, "whether persons, oxen, donkeys, sheeps or goats". Based on this command, "thirty-two thousand persons in all, women who had not known a man by lying with him" were divided up. This was done so that the Israelite soldiers could have these young girls "for themselves". I do not suspect that anyone reading this is either so naive or ignorant of King James English to not know what this means!
Moving along to another great example of Biblical morality, . . . in Deuteronomy 21:10-14 the Biblical "God of Love" gives the following command:
"When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands and thoust has taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and had a desire unto her, that though would have her to thy wife, then though shalt bring her home to thine house . . . and after that you may go into her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. But if though have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go" (Deuteronomy ; 21:10-14)
This should serve as sufficient proof that the morality that is taught in the Bible often is not what Christians make it out to be. In spite of what they teach in Sunday school, the above mentioned verses demonstrate the following:
* Almighty God, at least according to the Bible, ordered innocent babies to be killed; and
* He allowed young women to be forced into sex against their will.
Before moving on, it should be noted that killing women and children in war is never permitted under Islamic Law (the actions of some ignorant Muslims around the world notwithstanding). Some Christians may take issue with the words "innocent babies" above, since they believe that even babies are tainted with "Original Sin". However, this is not the topic of the discussion at hand. Suffice it to say that Biblical support for the Doctrine of Original Sin is contradictory at best. There are some verses that seem to support it, but there are others that seem to clearly deny it. One strike against "Original Sin", besides the fact that it's simply unjust, is the fact that the Jews - who read the Old Testament - never believed in it the way Christians do. But anyway . . . when faced with the problematic parts of the Old Testament, Christians react in various ways. Many offer up the ill thought out "Well-That's-in-the-Old-Testament" defense. In spite of the fact that they usually don't brush the Old Testament aside so quickly when they are being shown alleged prophecies which match Jesus(P), a few other thoughts can be presented. Some of the things that make brushing aside the Old Testament a bit more difficult (at least for Christians who want to remain intellectually honest) are:
1) the same God that "inspired" the Old Testament "inspired" the New Testament;
2) this same God is "unchanging" according to the Bible;
3) Jesus in the New Testament endorses the "Law and the prophets" (i.e. the Old Testament) in several places; and
4) without the Old Testament there is no basis for Christianity.
When put in this predicament, Christians have one of two choices:
1) Stop thinking about it and fall back on a liberal "pick-and-choose" religion that just makes them "feel good" but does not answer any of life's more difficult questions; or
2) Accept the Divinely Revealed morality of the Bible "as is".
There are Christians out there who claim to accept the Divinely Revealed morality of the Bible. They understand what's at stake and the issues at hand. If people are allowed to whimsically decide what is right and what is wrong, there would be chaos. Just as importantly, if people decide what is "God's Word" and what is not His word based on their preconceived notions and "modern" sensibilities, nothing would be left of the Bible. As such, there are Christians who, in principle, say that killing babies is "moral" as long as God clearly commands it. For someone who understands the nature of Divinely Revealed morality, we would have to agree in principle but with certain reservations. As mentioned above, Almighty God - according to Islam - never commands the killing of innocent children. That is one "difficulty" that I am glad that Muslims don't have to explain their way out of! Killing babies is okay as long as God commands it!?! So much for having Christians as baby-sitters!
The bottom line is that morality comes from Almighty God and from Him alone. However, if ones studies the Bible, it is plain to see that it is not a foundation for morality. The examples above are just a few that can be provided from both the Old and the New Testament. The people who promote "Biblical morality" pick and choose from the text as they please. Only in Islam can one with good conscience accept "the whole package" without ignorantly or hypocritically denying things that they don't like. This is how true internal peace and balance are achieved. If one belongs to a religion without accepting everything in its scripture (real or alleged) one is not only bearing false witness against oneself but against God Himself. With all the false ideas in the modern age, it's easy to be lead astray. The liberal Western morality that has now touched all corners of the globe is, culturally speaking, something like an eight-hundred pound gorilla. It's very hard to stand in its way or speak out against it. However, being encouraged by others to follow "vain desires" has been an eternal problem for mankind, as Almighty God makes clear in the Quran:
????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Say: 'I will not follow your vain desires: if I did I would stray from the path and be not of the company of those who receive guidance.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? [Quran ; 6:56]
Guideposts To Be Thankful For
The Prophet Muhammad was a great example for all of humanity and peoples of different cultures (from "modern" Europeans to the aborigines of Australia). Not only was he a great Prophet and Messenger, but he was also a statesman, military leader, ruler, teacher, neighbour and friend. Family life was one of the most important areas where he was a great example, since he was both a husband and a father. Due to God's wisdom, His last and final prophet experienced a wide array of marriages and family situations. Due to this, he is an example for people who are monogamous, for those who are polygamous, for those wishing to marry those older than themselves and for those wondering how early someone can rightfully marry. Muhammad(P) reestablished the Religion of Abraham(P) so that it would continue to the Last Day.
As Muslims, we should be thankful for these guideposts in our moral journey through life. Reflecting on them aids us in avoiding being led astray into "moral relativism". This is a very dangerous thing, since it can lead to the worst of all sins - associating others with Almighty God in worship, belief and/or Lordship. By knowing the Quran and the prophets life we can see how to stay within the boundaries laid by Almighty God and stay on the Natural Religion of Islam which was made to suit the natural disposition (fitrah) of mankind. I pray that we, as Muslims, make Almighty God's limits our limits, and that we are not influenced by other societies and cultures. If it was good enough for Abraham and Moses, Jesus and Mohammad then it's good enough for me . . .
Thanks for reading and my special thanks to Islamic Awareness Team
Nevermind wrote:
That's why underage people aren't allowed to be a part of a child pornography websites.
hahahahahaha
Nevermind wrote:
Marrying at a young age makes the woman feel that she's wasted her life,
now you are talking on behalf of the women of the world
hahahahahahhah
Nevermind wrote:
and I have had an experience with such cases,
who gives a fluke about your experiences?, as if you learnt from it
hahahahahahaha
Nevermind wrote:
so I guess that I know what I'm saying.
you are fooling yourself
opps
I mean Satan has done ya
hahahahahahaha
Nevermind wrote:
4- I would have insulted him even if we was alive.
of course because you are a rude woman
Nevermind wrote:
It makes no difference,
no it does make a difference, it confirms that you are a very rude woman
Nevermind wrote:
he affected my life and I am getting back at him,
hahahahahahahah
before you blame others that you are a loser, please blame yourself and wake up, would you like to hear a tune to help you wake up?, I got one just ready for you if you want
Nevermind wrote:
this is my business,
so you are a business woman?
Nevermind wrote:
not yours(with all my respect).
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not a business man
Nevermind wrote:
5- I didn't start a flaming war here.
of course you did
you cowardly accused a dead man with a horrific charge that never happened
if he is alive now I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure under the laws of your country he would successfully have sued you for defamation, because HE HAS DONE NOTHING WRONG
Nevermind wrote:
How do you know that I don't want peace with Muslims?
Peace!
You are rude
You are mocking them
You are mocking their God
Your are mocking their prophet
Now you area really a stupid woman too, if you found solace in leaving Islam why don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you leave it peacefully and gracefully and stop bitching about it with lies that are only ignorance and confusion founded?
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Posts: 184 Location: Riyadh
Post subject:
Great reply to nevermind. Especially you are my enemy and not friend.
Well brother AB this is a fantastic topic, i always wanna ask the disbelievers, that if Propeht wouldnt have married Ayesha at such a tender ages would these kafirs accept Islam.
For heavens sake no way, they cant target the Quran, so whats next is the Seerah of Prophet, well they have deception of disease in there heart.
The kafirs pick this situation as if, if this particular incident is deleted from the Life of Propeht they would accept Islam. BS
Well forget that as in your above post, its a cultural issue more then a religious issue, wehre in the Quran is it given the time for any one to get married no where and this kafirs again discuss such events with such elan, and hypocrisy is painted on there face and in black color.
In country like India, Afghanistan, we still continue wiht child marriage is it religious or cultural and if it is something cultural then no ones got right to attack a culture. Well most of the anthropologists dont have problem with this issue coz its cultural and it was common in the Arabs to get married earlier.
Biologically speaking since Arabia is a hot place, the girls get there menses at a very early age and hence even this is not an issue. Secondly the Mushriks of Makkah who hated Prophet the most, the most did not have any problems with such issues, its the problem of this age who are jumping around with this issue.
For the Mushriks of Makkah, its was nothing surprising otherwise they would be the first ones to object, well Allaah guides whom he will, for the Muslims Allaah ordered the marriage of Ayesha and Prophet period and today we know the result of this marriage. Allaah is the best of planners.
Let them plot, Allaah will also plot and Allaah is the best of planners.
The more kufar are attacking Muslims, its directly proportional for the non-muslims to convert to Islam.
Well let them enjoy, a short stay in this World and abuse whomsoever, Allaah will perish them for sure, remember what happened to Abu Lahab and a complete surah in the Quran just becuase this kafir abuse Noble Prophet now, I see different names, faces but heart remains the same, agenda remains one, objective remains one to disdain the Prophet but they forget that even there destination is also ONEunless these people do not change and guided by Allaah.
Thanks
Posted:
Sat 25 Nov, 2006 12:35 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
Great reply to nevermind. Especially you are my enemy and not friend.
Thanks bro
LOL about the enemy, well I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m right indeed, however I didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t take her as an enemy, she is the one that did by defaming my religion that she using her freewill rejected and I using my freewill accepted, therefore I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not an idiot to buy her non sense by calling me my friend, she only wants me to befriend her in her journey to the hell fire and I tell you man this is the worst friendship a human can ever have
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
Well brother AB this is a fantastic topic, i always wanna ask the disbelievers, that if Propeht wouldnt have married Ayesha at such a tender ages would these kafirs accept Islam.
A very good question to those biased and double faced kafiroon, I hope anyone can answer
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
For heavens sake no way, they cant target the Quran, so whats next is the Seerah of Prophet, well they have deception of disease in there heart.
Dumb deaf and blind and they don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t give heed
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
The kafirs pick this situation as if, if this particular incident is deleted from the Life of Propeht they would accept Islam. BS
They are an enemy man and the enemy can not be trusted nor their words are honored
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
Well forget that as in your above post, its a cultural issue more then a religious issue, wehre in the Quran is it given the time for any one to get married no where and this kafirs again discuss such events with such elan, and hypocrisy is painted on there face and in black color.
The Quran didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t specify any time to marry as you stated bro, however Allah has given us a sign to know when women can marry, it is called puberty
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
In country like India, Afghanistan, we still continue wiht child marriage is it religious or cultural and if it is something cultural then no ones got right to attack a culture. Well most of the anthropologists dont have problem with this issue coz its cultural and it was common in the Arabs to get married earlier.
In fact bro, one of my anties married at 9 tears old, exactly as the alleged age of Aisha marriage
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
Biologically speaking since Arabia is a hot place, the girls get there menses at a very early age and hence even this is not an issue.
Dumb deaf and blind
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
Secondly the Mushriks of Makkah who hated Prophet the most, the most did not have any problems with such issues, its the problem of this age who are jumping around with this issue.
Exactly man, also no incident of the great prophet molesting any young child that anyone is aware of
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
For the Mushriks of Makkah, its was nothing surprising otherwise they would be the first ones to object,
Exactly man, what a point for those dumb deaf and blind
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
well Allaah guides whom he will, for the Muslims Allaah ordered the marriage of Ayesha and Prophet period and today we know the result of this marriage. Allaah is the best of planners.
Exactly, nor the prophet married another young wife, indeed most of his wives were widows, old and deprived from physical beauty
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
Let them plot, Allaah will also plot and Allaah is the best of planners.
And they will end in a doom called hell fire, in there they will not live nor die
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
The more kufar are attacking Muslims, its directly proportional for the non-muslims to convert to Islam.
Hahahahah
Aren????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t they a bunch of losers
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
Well let them enjoy,
The hell fire?
No one can enjoy that man, LOL
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
a short stay in this World and abuse whomsoever, Allaah will perish them for sure, remember what happened to Abu Lahab and a complete surah in the Quran just becuase this kafir abuse Noble Prophet now,
If I will prosper bro inshallah, I will seek to watch them in the hell fire, it is actually written in the Quran and we will be allowed to watch them being humiliated for their crimes, I call it, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????it????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s Showtime????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? , would you join me?, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure we will have a couple of hot hoor chicks with us and possibly a glass of the best wine, what a show that will be man
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
I see different names, faces but heart remains the same, agenda remains one, objective remains one to disdain the Prophet but they forget that even there destination is also ONEunless these people do not change and guided by Allaah.
Thanks
What we see bro is nothing but dumb deaf and blinds
Ironically the Quran confirmed to us that we will see those losers and indeed if we don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see them it will be a contradiction in the Quran, LOL
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Posts: 184 Location: Riyadh
Post subject:
Bro if you can get me a word which is amalgamation of humour and seriousness I would be glad, most of your replies are witty.
Well at the end of the day Allaah refuge you from all evil things, Ameen.
Thats right, I would like to know wh at this kafirs are upto. Well bro I think so we will form a research team, look at all those points by this kafirs and match to what the Mushriks of Makkah said, well i think so it will be the same. LOL.
I will Insha Allaah join in you Show time, May Allaah guide all the Muslim to the straight path.
Ameen.
Posted:
Sat 25 Nov, 2006 5:42 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Ahmed chose to reverse Nevermind dismissals for a few minutes and respond to her silly comment from her naked Barbie world
Nevermind wrote:
1- I am calling you "my friend" in a sense of respecting you,
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry, who are you fooling exactly? Not me for sure
If you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t respect my prophet then you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t respect me even if you call me Sir Ahmed, this is my rules, and I have atheists who are respected friends and will respect my prophet hence they respect me and I respect them
Nevermind wrote:
no one told you to accompany me to the alleged hell-fire,
yep, if I listen to your Satan calls, it is exactly like you are calling me to join you in the hell fire that you are heading to, here is an overview for you:
hmmm, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure you didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t enjoy that, ok, here is something romantic for ya:
ok it seems you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t like my movies, how about this true story:
ok if all that didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t make any sense to you, you can only listen in here:
while I still see you as an arrogant and very rude woman, you still have a pretty face and I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m very weak when it comes to pretty women even if they are B******
Welcome to my Bollywood
Nevermind wrote:
we're discussing Islam..
please, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t lie or santa won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t come to you, xmas is around the corner hey
now be honest and say the truth that you Insulted the prophet hence you were insulting islam not bloody discussing it
please pretty woman, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be an ugly woman
Nevermind wrote:
If we
who is we?, is it me and you
lucky me if me an you are locked in a room, what do you think will happen then?
Nevermind wrote:
find out that it's the true religion of the (non-existent) God,
holy crap man, a true religion of a non existent god? Hmmmmm I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure you meant a non existent religion of a non existent god?, right pretty woman?
This is how it makes sense sweetheart, see how nice I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m, not insulting you any more, I just discovered the pretty face you have
Nevermind wrote:
then we will follow it.
hahahahaha, follow the non existaent religion of the non existent god, hahahahahahahah, are you on drugs or something?
Nevermind wrote:
Unfortunately nothing supports your beliefs.
why don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you never bloody mind?
Or you want to save me?
Ok save me from what exactly sweetheart?
Please let me know
Nevermind wrote:
2- We won't accept Islam even if Mohammed didn't marry Aisha, this is just one of the things we have against Islam, I left Islam before even knowing the Aisha thing.
That means you are so confident and your conclusion was bloody conclusive that this religion is crap, why don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you go on with your life then sweetheart?
Unless you have assigned a humanitarian role for yourself to save the Muslims,
That is really noble by you darling, but can you please tell us what are you going to save us from?
Possibly to save the Muslims from a nuclear bomb by the us? Hmmm, how the hell they will bomb themselves?, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t they know that every year there is 20,000 new American converts? Indeed in about 100 years America will be a Muslim country, hahahahahahaha, indeed even in Australia where the Islamic growth rate is the highest in the world 257%, they started worrying that Australia will be a Muslim country soon, they even discussed it in the open in the parliament
Nevermind wrote:
3- Dumb...Well..That's your opinion.
but you still have a pretty face, also you should add to my opinion that you are very rude
Nevermind wrote:
Deaf?, I am listening to songs
yep that is your guidance
Nevermind wrote:
..Blind..Hey, I am reading what you're writing.
no I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t believe you
can you prove it?
bloody silly
Nevermind wrote:
4- Women can marry even before puberty,
sorry, do you mean she will have intercourse?
If that is the case then that is what I call paedophilia
Nevermind wrote:
but it's unethical to marry such a young woman to an old man because she didn't make the choice.
hahahahahahahah, how do you know that she didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t?
Yep you heard it in your Barbie world, you are not deaf hey
Aysha loved Mohammad to death, in fact she was very jealous from his other wives you ignorant
Nevermind wrote:
She didn't choose him....It's her life, not her parents'.
come on, give me a break, will ya?
please go to Opera and discuss this issue with her, she will help you out
Nevermind wrote:
5- I feel sorry for your Aunt.
Thanks but she does not feel sorry for herself, she is about 70 years now and still married to the same man who is in his eighties currently, would that mean you got it wrong?
Nevermind wrote:
6- Prove that get menses early at hot countries.
far out man,
look pretty woman, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not a doctor, but I may try with you if you allow me, how about you come to Australia?, it is a hot country and we can see how it will affect ya, I will be the one who will document the experiment with all required proofs and photos, would that sound good to you?
Nevermind wrote:
7- Because pedophilia seems to have been widespread in those times, but it's still pedophilia.
But it was not during the prophet time as well no one accused him for 1400 years of such crime, it is the confused and biased west who want to defame this great man
Nevermind wrote:
8- blah blah blah.
hahahahahaha
Nevermind wrote:
9- Prove that his wives were deprived from physical beauty,
not after you prove to me that Aysha didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t make a choice
Nevermind wrote:
well...khadija was...but Money would make such an evil man marry the oldest, ugliest wife on earth.
she was the one who asked to marry him you stupid, also Khadija was beautiful and he never married another all the time he lived with her, in addition to that after she died he stayed single for many years mourning her until he married again
you are jealous of Mohammad and his success, you are jealous of his followers because they will win and you will loose, therefore all the rubbish you say has no value to the Muslims, or I should say it adds one value to us which is confirming the hatred you have in your sick heart and mind to this great man and his followers, well the JD is not far and you will pay for your crimes against him and them and I will watch you being humiliated inshallah while having a chick on my right hand and a glass of wine on my left hand
it is Showtime
would you like to see a movie about that?
Nevermind wrote:
10- Then what's the point of it, people are afraid of fire because it can lead to death...you will soon get used to it and become apathetic to the whole issue of torture...Also, only an old-fashioned God will use fire in his hell.
try a god from Gucci
Nevermind wrote:
11- Yeah, you lure the unaware by your lies and false promises.
Who, me?
Fine, report me to the police
Nevermind wrote:
12- Well, We all do enjoy a good tan.
look you even enjoyed it while being that far from me, imagine both of us are locked in the same room alone
Nevermind wrote:
13- lol, Abu Lahab...And his wife...The hatab, Jeedihah, habl men lahab...cool story...More of a bedtime story if you ask me.
fuk abu lahab and his wife, who the hell are they?, oh yeh they are your future companions in the hell fire, at least you will have a chance to talk to them, I won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t, what an achievement pretty woman
Nevermind wrote:
14- LMAO, It's known that there would be some people who oppose any idea, Mohammed didn't discover a big thing.
Peace!
What a moron
Salam and you are back to your dismissed status btw _________________ http://free-islam.com
Posted:
Sun 26 Nov, 2006 1:45 am
SlaveofAllaah Site Admin
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Posts: 184 Location: Riyadh
Post subject: Re:
Thes people wont change except Allaah wills, let them be there in the Barbie and the Alice and wonderland worlds.
Let them enjoy this small stay here.
Posted:
Sun 26 Nov, 2006 1:59 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Hello All
I just posted tis message on FaithFreedom:
Hello boys and girls
Did you know boys and girls that Joseph the carpenter married Mary?
I'm sure you know that boys and girls
But did you know that he was bloody 90 years old and Mary was 12 when he married her?
I'm sure you don't know that, because boys and girls I have never seen an ignorant school as such school you are attending on cyber world
Now let me ask you boys and girls:
Is Joseph the carpenter a paedophile?
you are going to say yeh yeh yeh
I will say no no no boys and girls, because it was a case of legal marriage you hypocrite dumb bums _________________ http://free-islam.com
Posted:
Tue 05 Dec, 2006 6:58 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Always_Faithful wrote:
1. He never had sex with her. Hence virgin Mary. Even muslims claim she never had sex.
2. Where did you get those ages from? Mary was said to be about 16, whilst Joseph's age is unknown. Christian scripture is very ambiguous about their ages.
Yeh yeh, he just had foreplay with Mary
Who are you kiddin mate
If the bible is corrupt regarding the age of Mary then why not the hadith is corrupt regarding the age of Aysha?
What a double faced and hypocrite the boys and girls here are
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Hector wrote:
Ahmed,
You don't like it when I call your prophet a sick pedophile?
Of course
I will only like it if you can prove it you liar who only wants to defame a noble man
Hector wrote:
So tell me what do we call a 53 year old man who f*cked a pre-pubertal nine year old child?
first of all there is no conclusive evidence that he f*cked her when she was 9, indeed there are other corrupt hadith stories that she was 12 when he f*cked her
now being 9 or 12 when he f*ked her, makes no differcne because he didn't f*ck her in a brothel you ignornat
he only f*cked his legal wife while her parents were aware that their daughter was being f*cked and all the people who lived with them also knew you filthy retarded liar
Here is the definition of paedophilie for ya you perverted ignorant
Definitions
The word comes from the Greek paidophilia (παιδοφιλία)????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????pais (παις, "child") and philia (φιλία, "love, friendship"). Paidophilia was coined by Greek poets either as a substitute for "paiderastia" (pederasty)[2], or vice versa[3]. As paederastia and pederasty were used in a derogatory manner since the time of ancient Rome until the mid-20th century due to its exclusive sexual meaning while paedophilia was not due to the originally more sublime meaning of φιλία in classical Greek compared to εραστια, the latter version of the story might be more likely.
The term paedophilia erotica was coined in 1886 by the Vienna psychiatrist Richard von Krafft-Ebing in his writing Psychopathia Sexualis.[4] He gave the following characteristics:
the sexual interest is toward children, either prepubescent or at the beginning of puberty
the sexual interest is the primary one, that is, exclusively or mainly toward children
the sexual interest remains over time
see the red above you sector of lies?
now prove to me you ignornat that when Aysha was not young any more she was dumbed by her husband who should be looking for other children you filthy sick and low human being?
Hector wrote:
Oh... so what if he married her? Does marriage mean he wasn't a pedophile? No. Mormon leaders also marry underaged girls and we also don't have problems calling them pedophiles.
dissmissed
Hector wrote:
Get used to it, man. Marriage is no excuse for pedophilia - which means having sex with underaged kids, married or otherwise.
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Here is a good one I posted on FF:
Hello All
Here is a clear cut case of paedophilia encoutagment by the Bible:
17- Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
18- but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. [Numbers 31:17,18]
-> this is double blow for the hypocrites on this web site,
we read first to kill all th boys (children) and all the women who slept with men
on the otherhand we read, "but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man"
hmmmm, a clear teaching to molest young girls who never slept with men, i.e. virgins who may never had their period
ok boys and girls you should thank me because I got you something serious to rant about or are you going to turn a blind eye on it?, come on, it is in the Bible, unless you concede that the Bible is corrupt and the above verses are fake?
if you do, then I will accept that and won't challenge you that the Bible is not corrupt
And nice thread, i havent read it all yet, but thanks for posting it.
Posted:
Tue 26 Dec, 2006 2:53 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
kellyjaz wrote:
Would you take a non-believer as your freind?
sure but only if they don't attack my religion as well don't support those who atttack my religion
On the other hand I can't take a non believer who is my friend as my brother/sister in religion, sort of like a religious friend, the non believer is only a day to day freind in any issue but religion
it makes sense indeed because that non believer rejected my religion which suppose to be sent to him/her as well
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