Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject: 2:143 "la kabeeratan"
2:143 Wakathalika jaAAalnakum ommatan wasatan litakoonoo shuhadaa AAala alnnasi wayakoona alrrasoolu AAalaykum shaheedan wama jaAAalna alqiblata allatee kunta AAalayha illa linaAAlama man yattabiAAu alrrasoola mimman yanqalibu AAala AAaqibayhi wa-in kanat lakabeeratan illa AAala allatheena hada Allahu wama kana Allahu liyudeeAAa eemanakum inna Allaha bialnnasi laraoofun raheemun
2:143 And like that We made you a moderate/reasonable nation to be witnesses on the people, and the messenger be (a) witness on you, and We did not make the (prayer) direction that you were on it, except to know who follows the messenger from who returns on his two heels , and that truly (was) big/great (E) except on those who God guided, and God was not to waste your faith/belief, that God (is) with the people merciful/compassionate (E) , most merciful .
# v know that the kaaba had been revered by the arabs and believed to be sacred since long before the revelation of the quran! the fact that abraham built the kaaba would have only added to their pride over it....to then not face the the temple they knew to be the bayt of god, and instead face the direction of mount moriah/almasjid alaqsa/temple mount/holy of the holies must have seemed tasking to them!
# the jews hold all of israel in high esteem...but perhaps the most revered spot for them is the holy of the holies! the muslims initially faced the direction which was held in esteem by the jews, so they were perhaps approving of it...
...however, when the second of the 2 qiblas was announced....they were probably not thrilled to face in the direction of the temple which was revered by the pagan arabs....the temple of the descendants of ishmael whom the jews and the christians look down upon!
# as v see, the pagan arabs would have found it strange to turn towards a place revered by jews and christians, while the jews and christians would have been no more convinced about the temple which was revered by the descendants of ishmael...
...so what (exactly) has been described as "la kabeeratan" in the verse?
was it "la kabeeratan" for the pagan arabs to adopt the first qibla?
or was it "la kabeeratan" for the jews and the christians to adopt the second qibla?
or was "la kabeeratan" about leaving aside prejudice and following the commands of god as and when they arrived?
Posted:
Mon 29 Jan, 2007 11:03 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject: Re: 2:143 "la kabeeratan"
The wrote:
...so what (exactly) has been described as "la kabeeratan" in the verse?
Salam bro
I looked at the verse and checked all tafsirs, exactly as i understand it alhamdullelah, Kabira is referring to the Qiblah change as an action
The wrote:
was it "la kabeeratan" for the pagan arabs to adopt the first qibla?
it means in 2:143 that the decision to change it will not be easy to accept for some of the Muslims as far as i believe, it has nothing to do with the pagans actually even though they wondered but for them it should have no value i.e. not a BIG (Kabira) deal
The wrote:
or was it "la kabeeratan" for the jews and the christians to adopt the second qibla?
No it means the adoption of the second Qiblah is going to be hard for some so called believers, sort of they will doubt the message
The wrote:
or was "la kabeeratan" about leaving aside prejudice and following the commands of god as and when they arrived?
as far as i believe, the word Kabira (big) within 2:143 means that some of the believers will have difficulty accepting then implementing it (the qiblah change),
this is a common use in the Arabic language, which is to use the word Big (Kabira) to describe a difficult action, for example the Quran used it as such in the following verse (subhan Allah, i found it in the same sura):
And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones, [The Quran ; 2:45] وَاسْتَعِينُواْ بِالصَّبْرِ وَالصَّلاَةِ وَإِنَّهَا لَكَبِيرَةٌ إِلاَّ عَلَى الْخَاشِعِينَ (45)
-> See how the Salat was described as HARD thing except for the humble ones, وَإِنَّهَا لَكَبِيرَةٌ إِلاَّ عَلَى الْخَاشِعِين, "Wa Inha La Kabira Ila Ala Al Khasheen", i.e. "and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones"
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
I looked at the verse and checked all tafsirs, exactly as i understand it alhamdullelah, Kabira is referring to the Qiblah change as an action
# i appreciate ur efforts, bro..thanx! (-:
Quote:
it means in 2:143 that the decision to change it will not be easy to accept for some of the Muslims as far as i believe, it has nothing to do with the pagans actually even though they wondered but for them it should have no value i.e. not a BIG (Kabira) deal
# cool, bro...however, i think i was not all that clear....when i said the pagans, i meant the pagans-turned-muslims! (-:
Quote:
No it means the adoption of the second Qiblah is going to be hard for some so called believers, sort of they will doubt the message
# again, i meant the jews and christians who had accepted muhammad as god's messenger! (-:
Quote:
as far as i believe, the word Kabira (big) within 2:143 means that some of the believers will have difficulty accepting then implementing it (the qiblah change),
# i agree....and some of these so called believers (as u called them) were, possibly, formerly pagans or jews or christians! (-:
Quote:
this is a common use in the Arabic language, which is to use the word Big (Kabira) to describe a difficult action, for example the Quran used it as such in the following verse (subhan Allah, i found it in the same sura):
And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones,
[The Quran ; 2:45]
وَاسْتَعِينُواْ بِالصَّبْرِ وَالصَّلاَةِ وَإِنَّهَا لَكَبِيرَةٌ إِلاَّ عَلَى الْخَاشِعِينَ (45)
-> See how the Salat was described as HARD thing except for the humble ones, وَإِنَّهَا لَكَبِيرَةٌ إِلاَّ عَلَى الْخَاشِعِين, "Wa Inha La Kabira Ila Ala Al Khasheen", i.e. "and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones"
# i agree with what u are saying, bro....however, i brought this up cuz i think the "believers" were more likely to have problems with a particular qibla if they already had ideas about what the qibla should or shouldnt be!
i ll try to explain what i am saying:
a. ) let's suppose i am a...ummm....buddhist....and i dont have a preference for either kaaba or temple mount! i then come across muhammad, and i accept his message!
he tells me that god wants the believers to face the temple mount! i dont have any attachments or resentments, and i simply follow that which muhammad tells me! a while later he tells me that god wants the believers to face the kaaba! i say, "cool! i ll do as gawd almighty bids me to", and turn my countenance towards the kaaba!
b. ) now let's suppose i am an arab pagan...i ve been revering the kaaba all my life! and along comes muhammad with his message of one god! i consider his message and i think it's cool...moreover, he has good words to say about the kaaba (that) i adore....he tells me it's the bayt of god....and this is what i have always believed! i am happy with muhammad's message! : happy :
a while later he comes and tells me, "listen dude....i ve received a revelation from god...god wants the believers to face the temple mount!"
and i start thinking: "temple mount?! uh-oh...why would that be? isnt the kaaba the bayt of god? and didnt the fella muhammad tell us the same thing? then how be it that he's now telling us that god wants the believers to face the temple mount? why does this guy want us to turn away from the bayt of god to a direction which is observed by peepz he calls "errant"? why??.......wwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyy!!" : angry :
# i could make another case for a jew.....but i just want to make sure i am able to get my point across...and i hope this will suffice!
# u see, as a former buddhist i have no preferences regarding the 2 shrines...it doesnt matter to me whether i face the kaaba or the temple mount...cuz i aint already loaded with ideas about any specific qibla...i attach no significance to either!
## however...as a former pagan i do have some history with the kaaba! i ve always held the kaaba in high esteem...and muhammad also agrees to it being the house of god...so i am comfortable to a certain degree!
then 1 unfine day he tells me not to face the bayt of god.....and he himself knows it to be bayt of god; and instead face....hold ur breath.....some temple which is revered by jews!! jews?! the very peepz who are admonished by muhammad's god? if jews are not guided (as muhammad claims) then why does muhammad's god want us to join them in their direction?
doubts start clouding my mind....i am no longer so sure about senor muhammad! hmmm....no senor.....thank you...u can keep ur god and ur message to urself...i aint turning away from the bayt of god....i aint turning away from the kaaba....i aint facing any temple mount....good-bye!!
# so what i am now asking is whether it's possible that the peepz who had former affiliations to either of the 2 qiblas were more likely to feel the pinch of a qibla they were not accustomed to...esp since it came at the cost of the qibla they were accustomed to!
# take care, bro! (-:
## salam!
Posted:
Mon 05 Mar, 2007 5:36 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Ok bro, sorry for the understanding, I actually found that your writings have a bit of smart code in it
anyway, I truly believe that the verse has nothing to do with being a Muslim from birth, a pagan or any other faith first before becoming a Muslim, however I might agree that it may have some psychological effects due to what they have been through and according to each one's individual history of events that may affect the way they think but not to a degree that they don't accept the belief in God, they do but somehow they allowed Satan the opportunity to flaw them and reject some orders from Allah, that is the least Satan can do to them (and any believer for that matter) after he failed to keep them away from the belief in Allah
It's really a tough call bro and I can't give you an affirmative answer
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
Ok bro, sorry for the understanding, I actually found that your writings have a bit of smart code in it
# : blush : lolz
Quote:
anyway, I truly believe that the verse has nothing to do with being a Muslim from birth, a pagan or any other faith first before becoming a Muslim,
# cool, bro! (-:
Quote:
however I might agree that it may have some psychological effects due to what they have been through and according to each one's individual history of events that may affect the way they think but not to a degree that they don't accept the belief in God, they do but somehow they allowed Satan the opportunity to flaw them and reject some orders from Allah, that is the least Satan can do to them (and any believer for that matter) after he failed to keep them away from the belief in Allah
# i agree bro....also, i think whatever the previous belief of the "believers".....the "true" believers would not shy away from carrying out the command of god! those who brought faith in quran and muhammad's prophethood...they would not have turned upon their heels...though for somebody like me, it definitely is a case of easier said than done! :-S
Quote:
It's really a tough call bro and I can't give you an affirmative answer
# i agree, bro....and i am quite comfy with non-affirmative answers! (-:
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