How many Angels faught in Badr battle with the believers?

[AhmedBahgat]

Argument presented by : sandman5140 of www.libertyunites.us

How many angels fought with Muhammad?

Is it:

Three thousand. OR Five thousand.

The first verse sandman5140 posted is:

When thou didst say unto the believers: Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should support you with three thousand angels sent down (to your help)?
[The Quran ; 3:124]

إِذْ تَقُولُ لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَلَن يَكْفِيكُمْ أَن يُمِدَّكُمْ رَبُّكُم بِثَلاَثَةِ آلاَفٍ مِّنَ الْمَلآئِكَةِ مُنزَلِينَ (124)

And the second verse sandman5140 posted:

When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank.
[The Quran ; 8:9]

إِذْ تَسْتَغِيثُونَ رَبَّكُمْ فَاسْتَجَابَ لَكُمْ أَنِّي مُمِدُّكُم بِأَلْفٍ مِّنَ الْمَلآئِكَةِ مُرْدِفِينَ (9)


I highlighted the number of angles mentioned in these two different verses as posted by sandman5140, however sandman5140 failed to explain his argument, in fact what he posted is all wrong which indicates that it is only a stereotype post that is nothing more than a copy and paste Job

Sandman5140 claims that in one location it is 3000 and in the other it is 5000, however looking at the verses he posted we can see clearly that the first verse 3:124 says the number of angles is 3000: When thou didst say unto the believers: Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should support you with three thousand angels sent down (to your help)? When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank. it says the number of angles is 1000. However sandman5140 raises the next argument:

Is it : 3000 OR 5000 angles who fought with Mohammed?

Come on, I never read the number 5000 within the 2 verses sandman posted, sure he is wrong here, but hey I understand, it was just a copy and paste job, i.e. he had no input to it, which is really shame, because if I will argue with anyone, I have to know what I'm talking about first in every bloody detail but sandman failed to do so.

The question should be :

Is it : 1000 OR 3000 angles that helped the believers in Badr battle?

Well, this question is wrong as well, it will be only valid question according to the 2 verses you posted but because you failed again to include the required verses in your argument, the question of : Is it 1000 OR 3000 angles? that helped the believers in Badr battle is also wrong.

Actually if we post the proper verses, the Question should be as follow:

Is it : 1000 OR 3000 OR 5000 angles that helped the believers in Badr battle?

Here are the proper verses for the valid question above:

The second verse 8:9 that he posted is OK but he was wrong in not reading that it says 1000 angles:[/size]

When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank.
[The Quran ; 8:9]

إِذْ تَسْتَغِيثُونَ رَبَّكُمْ فَاسْتَجَابَ لَكُمْ أَنِّي مُمِدُّكُم بِأَلْفٍ مِّنَ الْمَلآئِكَةِ مُرْدِفِينَ (9)

[The first verse 3:124 is where sandman screwed up a bit, he only included verse 3:124 but HE SHOULD HAVE INCLUDED 3:123 & 3:124 & 3:125, here they are:

(123) Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude.

(124) When thou didst say unto the believers: Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should support you with three thousand angels sent down (to your help)?

(125) Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a terrific onslaught.

[The Quran ; 3:123-125]

وَلَقَدْ نَصَرَكُمُ اللّهُ بِبَدْرٍ وَأَنتُمْ أَذِلَّةٌ فَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ (123)
إِذْ تَقُولُ لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَلَن يَكْفِيكُمْ أَن يُمِدَّكُمْ رَبُّكُم بِثَلاَثَةِ آلاَفٍ مِّنَ الْمَلآئِكَةِ مُنزَلِينَ (124)
بَلَى إِن تَصْبِرُواْ وَتَتَّقُواْ وَيَأْتُوكُم مِّن فَوْرِهِمْ هَذَا يُمْدِدْكُمْ رَبُّكُم بِخَمْسَةِ آلافٍ مِّنَ الْمَلآئِكَةِ مُسَوِّمِينَ (125)

-> OK, there is actually no argument whatsoever, every word stated is 500% accurate, let me start with verse 8:9, where the number of angles mentioned was 1000 angles:

-> This verse actually is talking about a historical fact (the Battle of Badr), the first battle ever the Muslims fought, the total number of Muslims at the time was not more than 313 men, the infidels gathered forces and equipment to destroy the religion of Islam, the number of infidels was in the thousands with far better equipment.

-> Hell no if anyone says the Muslims had any chance, well if Allah is with then they have the BEST chance, and that is exactly what happened, a lot of the 313 Muslims were scared to death, it is bloody obvious they are just going to die, no question my friend, think about it logically, here is a brief info about the battle, but please search the net, it is also mentioned in encyclopedic Britannica:

In the second year of the Hijra (2 a.h.) the Holy Prophet made defensive preparations against an attack by the Meccan army that had come to invade the city of Medina. These Meccans came on 300 horses and 700 camels.

The two armies met at Badr, a place some distance from Medina. The battle began in the morning hours of Friday, the 7th of Ramadan. The Meccans suffered heavy losses. Seventy of them were killed and an equal number were taken prisoners. The Muslims lost only 14 men, although their army consisted of a small number of 313 men.

Abu Jahl, one of the leaders of the army of the Quraish, and also one of the bitterest enemies of the Holy Prophet , was killed in this battle.

The Muslims treated the prisoners very kindly. The rich among them were allowed to release themselves on payment of a ransom. Those who could read and write were told to purchase their freedom by teaching Muslim children how to read and write.

The point is, it was a battle impossible to win, and the Muslims were the people being attacked at the same time, the great prophet started to call the Muslim men to defend Allah's religion but many hesitated for sure what a tough job it was for the great Prophet, Allah knew for sure the unbalance in power and numbers between the very little believers and their malice enemy, so His mighty help WAS A MUST, otherwise you will never have seen a Muslim today. If they did not win in year 622, then the whole religion of Islam would have never been here today.

-> The help of our God sent down was 1000 angles as verse 8:9 stated, let's look at the verse again:

-> When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank., very clear bro, they asked our Lord for help, He answered by sending 1000 angles to fight with those 313 believers.

-> Moving on to the next 3 verses in the other location 3:123-125, we see clearly that it is talking about a period after Badr battle, so the verses were totally talking about something else starting from verse 3:123, it is actually talking about the next battles when the infidels were badly embarrassed and wanted revenge, so they kept preparing more stronger forces to destroy the Muslims. The Muslims on the other hand were still scared of fighting the enemy who want to kill us because their numbers was still very little, so Allah is reminding the believers of what happened in Badr battle:

-> Verse 3:123, here is the reminder by Allah regarding Badr battle: Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude., a clear reminder with His mighty help of sending 1000 angles as we read in verse 8:9

- Verse 3:124, and this is the verse you posted, and is actually not talking about Badr battle at all, it is strong words that Allah wanted the Prophet to say it to the shaky believers, that do not be scared this time Allah WILL SUPPORT you with 3000 angles :[b] When thou didst say unto the believers: Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should support you with three thousand angels sent down (to your help)? , very clear man, and the verse never mentioned Badr battle, you can sense how hard the prophet was working to deliver Allah's message from the words : Is it not sufficient for you, which you will see clearly that the number 3000 angles mentioned here was used for argument sake and to encourage the believers to fight the enemy who was gathering more forces to kill them.

The next verse actually explains this argument thrown by the prophet on the believers, the prophet actually said next that if you act right and remain firm and the enemy gather more stronger forces to kill you because of your faith, Allah can send even 5000 angles not 3000 that was used before as an example in the same verse, again it is not talking about the 1000 angels sent in Badr battle as we read in 8:9, i.e. the 3000, and 5000 in here is nothing but examples that Allah can do better than the 1000 He sent before:

-> Verse 3:125, is the rest of the prophet argument in verse 3:124 to the believers as he was encouraging them to defend themselves: "Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a terrific onslaught.

See, there is no contradiction whatsoever, clearly this was another case of an ignorant enemy of Islam who was caught red handed asking an invalid question that he did not even understand

Salam

[AhmedBahgat]

Argument presented by : sandman5140 of www.libertyunites.us

How many angels fought with Muhammad?

Is it:

Three thousand. OR Five thousand.

The first verse sandman5140 posted is:

When thou didst say unto the believers: Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should support you with three thousand angels sent down (to your help)?
[The Quran ; 3:124]

إِذْ تَقُولُ لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَلَن يَكْفِيكُمْ أَن يُمِدَّكُمْ رَبُّكُم بِثَلاَثَةِ آلاَفٍ مِّنَ الْمَلآئِكَةِ مُنزَلِينَ (124)

And the second verse sandman5140 posted:

When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank.
[The Quran ; 8:9]

إِذْ تَسْتَغِيثُونَ رَبَّكُمْ فَاسْتَجَابَ لَكُمْ أَنِّي مُمِدُّكُم بِأَلْفٍ مِّنَ الْمَلآئِكَةِ مُرْدِفِينَ (9)


I highlighted the number of angles mentioned in these two different verses as posted by sandman5140, however sandman5140 failed to explain his argument, in fact what he posted is all wrong which indicates that it is only a stereotype post that is nothing more than a copy and paste Job

Sandman5140 claims that in one location it is 3000 and in the other it is 5000, however looking at the verses he posted we can see clearly that the first verse 3:124 says the number of angles is 3000: When thou didst say unto the believers: Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should support you with three thousand angels sent down (to your help)? When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank. it says the number of angles is 1000. However sandman5140 raises the next argument:

Is it : 3000 OR 5000 angles who fought with Mohammed?

Come on, I never read the number 5000 within the 2 verses sandman posted, sure he is wrong here, but hey I understand, it was just a copy and paste job, i.e. he had no input to it, which is really shame, because if I will argue with anyone, I have to know what I'm talking about first in every bloody detail but sandman failed to do so.

The question should be :

Is it : 1000 OR 3000 angles that helped the believers in Badr battle?

Well, this question is wrong as well, it will be only valid question according to the 2 verses you posted but because you failed again to include the required verses in your argument, the question of : Is it 1000 OR 3000 angles? that helped the believers in Badr battle is also wrong.

Actually if we post the proper verses, the Question should be as follow:

Is it : 1000 OR 3000 OR 5000 angles that helped the believers in Badr battle?

Here are the proper verses for the valid question above:

The second verse 8:9 that he posted is OK but he was wrong in not reading that it says 1000 angles:[/size]

When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank.
[The Quran ; 8:9]

إِذْ تَسْتَغِيثُونَ رَبَّكُمْ فَاسْتَجَابَ لَكُمْ أَنِّي مُمِدُّكُم بِأَلْفٍ مِّنَ الْمَلآئِكَةِ مُرْدِفِينَ (9)

[The first verse 3:124 is where sandman screwed up a bit, he only included verse 3:124 but HE SHOULD HAVE INCLUDED 3:123 & 3:124 & 3:125, here they are:

(123) Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude.

(124) When thou didst say unto the believers: Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should support you with three thousand angels sent down (to your help)?

(125) Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a terrific onslaught.

[The Quran ; 3:123-125]

وَلَقَدْ نَصَرَكُمُ اللّهُ بِبَدْرٍ وَأَنتُمْ أَذِلَّةٌ فَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ (123)
إِذْ تَقُولُ لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَلَن يَكْفِيكُمْ أَن يُمِدَّكُمْ رَبُّكُم بِثَلاَثَةِ آلاَفٍ مِّنَ الْمَلآئِكَةِ مُنزَلِينَ (124)
بَلَى إِن تَصْبِرُواْ وَتَتَّقُواْ وَيَأْتُوكُم مِّن فَوْرِهِمْ هَذَا يُمْدِدْكُمْ رَبُّكُم بِخَمْسَةِ آلافٍ مِّنَ الْمَلآئِكَةِ مُسَوِّمِينَ (125)

-> OK, there is actually no argument whatsoever, every word stated is 500% accurate, let me start with verse 8:9, where the number of angles mentioned was 1000 angles:

-> This verse actually is talking about a historical fact (the Battle of Badr), the first battle ever the Muslims fought, the total number of Muslims at the time was not more than 313 men, the infidels gathered forces and equipment to destroy the religion of Islam, the number of infidels was in the thousands with far better equipment.

-> Hell no if anyone says the Muslims had any chance, well if Allah is with then they have the BEST chance, and that is exactly what happened, a lot of the 313 Muslims were scared to death, it is bloody obvious they are just going to die, no question my friend, think about it logically, here is a brief info about the battle, but please search the net, it is also mentioned in encyclopedic Britannica:

In the second year of the Hijra (2 a.h.) the Holy Prophet made defensive preparations against an attack by the Meccan army that had come to invade the city of Medina. These Meccans came on 300 horses and 700 camels.

The two armies met at Badr, a place some distance from Medina. The battle began in the morning hours of Friday, the 7th of Ramadan. The Meccans suffered heavy losses. Seventy of them were killed and an equal number were taken prisoners. The Muslims lost only 14 men, although their army consisted of a small number of 313 men.

Abu Jahl, one of the leaders of the army of the Quraish, and also one of the bitterest enemies of the Holy Prophet , was killed in this battle.

The Muslims treated the prisoners very kindly. The rich among them were allowed to release themselves on payment of a ransom. Those who could read and write were told to purchase their freedom by teaching Muslim children how to read and write.

The point is, it was a battle impossible to win, and the Muslims were the people being attacked at the same time, the great prophet started to call the Muslim men to defend Allah's religion but many hesitated for sure what a tough job it was for the great Prophet, Allah knew for sure the unbalance in power and numbers between the very little believers and their malice enemy, so His mighty help WAS A MUST, otherwise you will never have seen a Muslim today. If they did not win in year 622, then the whole religion of Islam would have never been here today.

-> The help of our God sent down was 1000 angles as verse 8:9 stated, let's look at the verse again:

-> When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank., very clear bro, they asked our Lord for help, He answered by sending 1000 angles to fight with those 313 believers.

-> Moving on to the next 3 verses in the other location 3:123-125, we see clearly that it is talking about a period after Badr battle, so the verses were totally talking about something else starting from verse 3:123, it is actually talking about the next battles when the infidels were badly embarrassed and wanted revenge, so they kept preparing more stronger forces to destroy the Muslims. The Muslims on the other hand were still scared of fighting the enemy who want to kill us because their numbers was still very little, so Allah is reminding the believers of what happened in Badr battle:

-> Verse 3:123, here is the reminder by Allah regarding Badr battle: Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude., a clear reminder with His mighty help of sending 1000 angles as we read in verse 8:9

- Verse 3:124, and this is the verse you posted, and is actually not talking about Badr battle at all, it is strong words that Allah wanted the Prophet to say it to the shaky believers, that do not be scared this time Allah WILL SUPPORT you with 3000 angles :[b] When thou didst say unto the believers: Is it not sufficient for you that your Lord should support you with three thousand angels sent down (to your help)? , very clear man, and the verse never mentioned Badr battle, you can sense how hard the prophet was working to deliver Allah's message from the words : Is it not sufficient for you, which you will see clearly that the number 3000 angles mentioned here was used for argument sake and to encourage the believers to fight the enemy who was gathering more forces to kill them.

The next verse actually explains this argument thrown by the prophet on the believers, the prophet actually said next that if you act right and remain firm and the enemy gather more stronger forces to kill you because of your faith, Allah can send even 5000 angles not 3000 that was used before as an example in the same verse, again it is not talking about the 1000 angels sent in Badr battle as we read in 8:9, i.e. the 3000, and 5000 in here is nothing but examples that Allah can do better than the 1000 He sent before:

-> Verse 3:125, is the rest of the prophet argument in verse 3:124 to the believers as he was encouraging them to defend themselves: "Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a terrific onslaught.

See, there is no contradiction whatsoever, clearly this was another case of an ignorant enemy of Islam who was caught red handed asking an invalid question that he did not even understand

Salam